Women Engineers on the Rampant Sexism of Silicon Valley • Hacker News Board

Re: Women Engineers on the Rampant Sexism of Silicon Valley

#21

Post by apeace » Thu, Jun 08, 2017, 5:46 PM UTC

tzs wrote: post #19

> There are these tiny microaggressions that happen when people know you're a person of colour, they wanna know your origin, [...] I ask white males such questions, and have been asked such questions as a white male. In environments where a significant fraction of the people do not come from there, asking where you come from is a normal ice breaker and opening to get to know someone. If I avoid such questions when so…

The answer is to avoid such questions with everyone :)

This is a barrier I also had to cross as someone who is involved in a lot of interviewing (software engineers). I used to always break the ice with things like "Where ya from?" or "How long have you lived NYC?". To me it was natural to ask that when first meeting someone.

But over time I realized it makes some people uncomfortable. For example, someone with a thick accent (English is their second language) might take "Where ya from" to mean, "I noticed your accent, where is it from?".

As innocent as my intentions may be, I now believe it's not appropriate to ask questions like that during an interview process or at any time in the work place. Talk about movies, the weather, programming languages. If someone volunteers that type of information by all means engage with them.

And as an interview icebreaker just say, "It's so nice to meet you, we're glad to have you here. Should we get started?". Another one I now use is, "So what do you think of our office? Did you see all the snacks?".

Re: Women Engineers on the Rampant Sexism of Silicon Valley

#22

Post by djohnston » Thu, Jun 08, 2017, 5:46 PM UTC

Kenji wrote: post #3

"There are these tiny microaggressions that happen when people know you're a person of colour, they wanna know your origin, they wanna know your [...], they wanna know a bunch of things about you that don't really matter when it comes to work" Or maybe, you know, someone just tries to get to know their coworkers better with small talk, because getting along with people, being friendly and knowing a little bit about t…

It seems difficult to reconcile inclusivity with the inability to ask someone something as simple as where they are from. Not in a exoticized "Oh no, where are you REALLY from?", kind of way, but in the simple question about where you grew up, whether it's Chicago or New Delhi, kind of way. In a similar way, it seems difficult to debug a problem or help a coworker in a gender-blind manner, when subjectively speaking the wrong way places you at risk of being called a mansplaining sexist.

Exoticization and mansplaining are real phenomena, but so are misunderstandings and damaging accusations based on a lack of pre-established comfort zones with the employee. Less verbosely, if I just met you why would I know that such a question makes you uncomfortable? Should I just assume all brown people get skeeved out by that question and simply not ask them the same questions I ask my white coworkers? How is that inclusive?

Re: Women Engineers on the Rampant Sexism of Silicon Valley

#23

Post by neotrope » Thu, Jun 08, 2017, 6:12 PM UTC

FussyZeus wrote: post #18

Freestyler_3 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with Hitlers perspective on Jews, even if I don't understand it. Of course one could come with arguments that weaken/counter my disagreement, but I will still disagree. If you see the world as good and I see it as evil, we have opposing perspectives and I would say I disagree with you.

Hitler's perspective on Jews is irrelevant and not really a topic of debate. His actions in being the figurehead for those who orchestrated the holocaust are objectively terrible, arguable and measurable. I don't see the world as good, I see it as a collection of billions of people who all see things slightly differently which is why I don't attempt to seek truth in a viewpoint. There is truth in facts, truth in scie…

By your definition, what Hitler did wasn't "wrong". Moral relativism is a slippery slope.

Re: Women Engineers on the Rampant Sexism of Silicon Valley

#24

Post by kthejoker2 » Thu, Jun 08, 2017, 6:12 PM UTC

Mz wrote: post #17

baron816 wrote: post #14

I have to ask this, but isn't it possible that the media's obsession with sexism in the tech is backfiring? I think the best thing we could do to alleviate sexism would be to bring more women into the industry. How do we expect to do that if the impression they're getting is that it's filled with mysogynistic pigs and creeps? I'm not saying this stuff should be swept under the rug, but many tech companies have gone t…

I try to talk about what can be done constructively to move things forward. I try to blog about such issues in an even handed way. My blog gets very little traffic. Drama sells. You want traffic for your writing, getting up on your high horse and looking for the dirt will get more eyeballs than writing something more evenhanded. Additionally, someone like you saying something that sounds very reasonable is just anoth…

Your blog URL please? Thank you.

Re: Women Engineers on the Rampant Sexism of Silicon Valley

#25

Post by Mythanar » Thu, Jun 08, 2017, 6:30 PM UTC

bovermyer wrote: post #13

kleer001 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm with you on this. Everyday people are curious and not trained in cultural hypersensitivity (ethnic/gender/women/etc studies) , nor are they out to get you or piss you off on purpose. Let's have some good faith here. So, why don't we just be a bit non-violent about it all, accept people as they are, and address their curiosity instead of jumping down their throat about their unconscious ignorance? Eh? If you want…

For context, what is your race, gender, and economic background?

Not kleer001, but does it matter?

Would any of those traits invalidate his point or give more credit to his point of view?

Re: Women Engineers on the Rampant Sexism of Silicon Valley

#26

Post by FussyZeus » Thu, Jun 08, 2017, 6:34 PM UTC

neotrope wrote: post #23

FussyZeus wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hitler's perspective on Jews is irrelevant and not really a topic of debate. His actions in being the figurehead for those who orchestrated the holocaust are objectively terrible, arguable and measurable. I don't see the world as good, I see it as a collection of billions of people who all see things slightly differently which is why I don't attempt to seek truth in a viewpoint. There is truth in facts, truth in scie…

By your definition, what Hitler did wasn't "wrong". Moral relativism is a slippery slope.

In my mind, you're free to think whatever you want, no one should ever be punished for thought-crime. If you go your whole life thinking Jews are the scum of the Earth that's your business, as long as you keep it in your own head. If you speak those opinions and lose a job, well, that's the consequences to those beliefs. If you act on those beliefs and kill people, then you'll be tried and convicted of murder.

Beliefs, no matter how stupid and shitty, are not a crime.

Re: Women Engineers on the Rampant Sexism of Silicon Valley

#27

Post by Mythanar » Thu, Jun 08, 2017, 6:40 PM UTC

apeace wrote: post #21

tzs wrote: post #19

> There are these tiny microaggressions that happen when people know you're a person of colour, they wanna know your origin, [...] I ask white males such questions, and have been asked such questions as a white male. In environments where a significant fraction of the people do not come from there, asking where you come from is a normal ice breaker and opening to get to know someone. If I avoid such questions when so…

The answer is to avoid such questions with everyone :) This is a barrier I also had to cross as someone who is involved in a lot of interviewing (software engineers). I used to always break the ice with things like "Where ya from?" or "How long have you lived NYC?". To me it was natural to ask that when first meeting someone. But over time I realized it makes some people uncomfortable. For example, someone with a thi…

Just wait a bit, and with the way things are going, "Did you see all the snacks?" will be declared the thought crime against fat people.

I prefer using the same language in interviews as we do in office. If the candidate gets offended, chances are, he would be offended on the first day on the job; better weed those out early.

Re: Women Engineers on the Rampant Sexism of Silicon Valley

#28

Post by bassman9000 » Thu, Jun 08, 2017, 7:21 PM UTC

apeace wrote: post #21

tzs wrote: post #19

> There are these tiny microaggressions that happen when people know you're a person of colour, they wanna know your origin, [...] I ask white males such questions, and have been asked such questions as a white male. In environments where a significant fraction of the people do not come from there, asking where you come from is a normal ice breaker and opening to get to know someone. If I avoid such questions when so…

The answer is to avoid such questions with everyone :) This is a barrier I also had to cross as someone who is involved in a lot of interviewing (software engineers). I used to always break the ice with things like "Where ya from?" or "How long have you lived NYC?". To me it was natural to ask that when first meeting someone. But over time I realized it makes some people uncomfortable. For example, someone with a thi…

God forbid trying to socialize and learn a bit about your coworkers, or potential coworkers.

Re: Women Engineers on the Rampant Sexism of Silicon Valley

#29

Post by kleer001 » Thu, Jun 08, 2017, 7:51 PM UTC

bovermyer wrote: post #13

kleer001 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm with you on this. Everyday people are curious and not trained in cultural hypersensitivity (ethnic/gender/women/etc studies) , nor are they out to get you or piss you off on purpose. Let's have some good faith here. So, why don't we just be a bit non-violent about it all, accept people as they are, and address their curiosity instead of jumping down their throat about their unconscious ignorance? Eh? If you want…

For context, what is your race, gender, and economic background?

identity politics divides us

Re: Women Engineers on the Rampant Sexism of Silicon Valley

#30

Post by Mz » Thu, Jun 08, 2017, 7:56 PM UTC

kleer001 wrote: post #29

bovermyer wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For context, what is your race, gender, and economic background?

identity politics divides us

Or maybe, you know, someone just tries to get to know other forum members better with small talk, because getting along with people, being friendly and knowing a little bit about their background improves the interactions at HN dramatically. I'm not gonna lie, calling this identity politics alienates me deeply.

(Personally, I thought it was a good bit of theater. But it seems to always be lost on people that their offense at having the tables turned on them is evidence that their opinion that this sort of question is not a problem is probably BS. Because it seems to be a problem when it is done to them.)