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Ultraconserved words in use since the last Ice Age

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Re: Ultraconserved words in use since the last Ice Age

#11
post #8

My favorite example of this is the word "squirrel," which is originally from ancient Greek, σκίουρος (lexical translation: skiouros, which means shadow-tailed). Somehow the notion that Socrates would use approximately the same (rather unlikely) word for this animal that I do is fascinating.

My Japanese native language speaker in college had an obsession with the word "squirrel". We spent an entire year trying to teach her how to pronounce it.

Ssss-ka-wuh-rrr-llll

Re: Ultraconserved words in use since the last Ice Age

#12
post #8

My favorite example of this is the word "squirrel," which is originally from ancient Greek, σκίουρος (lexical translation: skiouros, which means shadow-tailed). Somehow the notion that Socrates would use approximately the same (rather unlikely) word for this animal that I do is fascinating.

There's an order-of-magnitude difference here: Ancient Greek was alive 1500 years ago, while the last Ice Age ended 12000 years ago.

Re: Ultraconserved words in use since the last Ice Age

#13

I really like the word "tea" across languages. Japanese - cha Chinese - chá Thailand - chā Russian - чай (chay) Turkish - Çay (chai) Sri Lanka Sinhala - තේ (tē) Arabic - شاي (shay) German - tee English - tea! You have to go out of your way to find a language where "tea" deviates from those patterns.

> You have to go out of your way to find a language where "tea" deviates from those patterns.

Well, there you go:

Lithuanian: arbata, https://translate.google.com/#en/lt/tea

Polish: herbata, https://translate.google.com/#en/pl/tea

Aymara: pulu, https://ay.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulu

Re: Ultraconserved words in use since the last Ice Age

#14
post #8

My favorite example of this is the word "squirrel," which is originally from ancient Greek, σκίουρος (lexical translation: skiouros, which means shadow-tailed). Somehow the notion that Socrates would use approximately the same (rather unlikely) word for this animal that I do is fascinating.

My Japanese native language speaker in college had an obsession with the word "squirrel". We spent an entire year trying to teach her how to pronounce it. Ssss-ka-wuh-rrr-llll

"Squirrel" is in fact a very difficult word to pronounce. Too many consonants squeezed into only two syllables -- sometimes even pronounced as a single syllable -- with a weird diphthong in between.

The ancient Greek version would have been much easier to express in Japanese: su-kyuu-ro-su.

Re: Ultraconserved words in use since the last Ice Age

#15

I really like the word "tea" across languages. Japanese - cha Chinese - chá Thailand - chā Russian - чай (chay) Turkish - Çay (chai) Sri Lanka Sinhala - තේ (tē) Arabic - شاي (shay) German - tee English - tea! You have to go out of your way to find a language where "tea" deviates from those patterns.

As common words go, this one isn’t that old though. Dates from the late 1st millennium, and has mostly been spread around in the past 500 years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymology_of_tea I think it’s similar with other products originating largely from a single source, e.g. “chocolate”, “ramen”, “tofu”, “wine”, “cashmere”, “curry”, “khaki”, “shampoo”, ...

But nothing is that simple. Chocolate got mixed up, for example. It's an aztec compound word for the drink made from the plant (xocolatl == "bitter water", per wikipedia). The original term for the plant itself in the sense we use it was the unrelated mayan word cacao.

Re: Ultraconserved words in use since the last Ice Age

#16

I really like the word "tea" across languages. Japanese - cha Chinese - chá Thailand - chā Russian - чай (chay) Turkish - Çay (chai) Sri Lanka Sinhala - තේ (tē) Arabic - شاي (shay) German - tee English - tea! You have to go out of your way to find a language where "tea" deviates from those patterns.

They all derive from two sources

Mandarin - chá

Hokkien - tê

Re: Ultraconserved words in use since the last Ice Age

#17
post #13

I really like the word "tea" across languages. Japanese - cha Chinese - chá Thailand - chā Russian - чай (chay) Turkish - Çay (chai) Sri Lanka Sinhala - තේ (tē) Arabic - شاي (shay) German - tee English - tea! You have to go out of your way to find a language where "tea" deviates from those patterns.

> You have to go out of your way to find a language where "tea" deviates from those patterns. Well, there you go: Lithuanian: arbata, https://translate.google.com/#en/lt/tea Polish: herbata, https://translate.google.com/#en/pl/tea Aymara: pulu, https://ay.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulu

Yet in Polish the word "czaj" also exists and it means a very strong tea.

Herbata seems to come from Latin, as it relates to herbs.

Re: Ultraconserved words in use since the last Ice Age

#18
The article says that words like "fire", "ashes", "bark", and "worm" could be 15K years old, but doesn't provide any idea of how they might have sounded back then. The original paper linked at the bottom doesn't seem to help in that regard, either.

Is this something that we simply cannot know with current methods? Ice Age people obviously didn't leave any sound recordings, but surely some of the sounds would have to be present in a similar form in order for us to say with confidence that a it's the same word?

Re: Ultraconserved words in use since the last Ice Age

#19
The link between a word's length and its "usefulness" is fascinating too. The shorter the word, the more central, fundamental and frequent its use, as a rule of thumb. [0]

One glaring exception is "conscientiousness" -- a personality trait that has been the nr. 1 performance predictor in jobs that require results (execution as opposed to ideas), across time and industries. Clearly central, but 17 characters! O_o

[0] Strauss, Grzybek, Altmann: Word Length and Word Frequency https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007%2F978-1-4020-4068-...

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