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“Let her speak please”

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Re: “Let her speak please”

#261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd have to agree though that it's a remarkable coincidence that the moderator began to ramble when he started talking about a topic that he was particularly excited about and which he was not particularly knowledgeable about.

I don't expect he set out that day to make the scientist shut up because she was a woman. A lot of sexism is so deeply rooted that it's not even hostile by the men who engage in it, it's simply the acting of the cultural norms, for example, that men can talk over women. I don't have a sexist bone in my body and I've caught myself doing this. The only way we improve as a society is to continuously monitor and correct…

Labels can ruin people. This was perhaps poor manners and should be mentioned but how can Marilee Talkington look deep into someone's "soul" by one single event and determine that they practice culturally rooted sexism?

Jim Holt has now been branded from "Facebook" to "Teen Vogue" of being a de facto sexist as a result of Talkington's opinion.

Talkington is an actor, director and women's rights activist which are notable pursuits.[…]

Re: “Let her speak please”

#262
post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think he was doing that because he was sexist, I think he was doing that because he was really excited about the duality. The only way to improve society is to recognize when things are really done with ill intent and when they're the result of: geeking out + bad social skills

The way I see it: * He was geeking out. True. * There was no ill intent. True. * He wasn't sexist. False. He could geek out all he wanted, but speaking for her multiple times over her trying to get a foot in was very sexist, regardless of intent. I hold the door for guys all the time, but if you're only doing it for "feeble girls" it is telling. This was the case in this panel. She's there because she knows her shit,…

Ok, so the woman who is ostensibly the victim doesn't see it as sexism, but presumably a random man who wasn't there and didn't see the event is arguing it is. Hmm, who to believe? Why are you mansplaining sexism to a woman and denying her lived experience?

Re: “Let her speak please”

#263
post #21

Edit: I watched the video. The moderator goes on and on and the "let her speak please" sounds very polite. This is a painfully frustrating reminder that women get talked over by men. It's one thing to have one panelist talk over another, but to have the moderator, who is explicitly in charge of facilitating a panel discussion, be the one to drown out a panelist is just unacceptable. Yes, "not all men" do this, but th…

Journalists definitely like to hear themselves talk, even when formulating questions while moderating a discussion. But if he, as a relative layperson in science, felt that comfortable interrupting Dr. Hubeny and riffing off of her area of expertise, imagine what he's like in a topic in which he doesn't think himself a relative amateur.

> Imagine what he's like in a topic in which he doesn't think himself a relative amateur.

He may not be aware that he is a relative amateur here.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#264

Edit: I watched the video. The moderator goes on and on and the "let her speak please" sounds very polite. This is a painfully frustrating reminder that women get talked over by men. It's one thing to have one panelist talk over another, but to have the moderator, who is explicitly in charge of facilitating a panel discussion, be the one to drown out a panelist is just unacceptable. Yes, "not all men" do this, but th…

If you watch the rest of the video you will find the moderator imposes himself and cuts off the panellists and talks over them multiple times, seemingly regardless of gender. This makes me strongly inclined to believe that this incident had nothing to do with sexism, but rather with the annoyingly dominant and imposing personality of the moderator. Maybe you think otherwise. Why would you say this incident is a "pain…

> If you watch the rest of the video you will find the moderator imposes himself and cuts off the panellists and talks over them multiple times, seemingly regardless of gender.

Honest question: Did you watch the rest of the video?

I did and completely disagree with your assessment.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#265
post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way I see it: * He was geeking out. True. * There was no ill intent. True. * He wasn't sexist. False. He could geek out all he wanted, but speaking for her multiple times over her trying to get a foot in was very sexist, regardless of intent. I hold the door for guys all the time, but if you're only doing it for "feeble girls" it is telling. This was the case in this panel. She's there because she knows her shit,…

I've spoken to people like this moderator and they just ramble over any topic they get excited about. What specifically makes you think he rambled because she was a woman?

Because he did. He rambled over the only woman.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#266

I received a delivery from a black gentleman today. Whilst reaching out for the package I was concerned he may think I'm racist if I wasn't excessively nice to him. I think I may be uncomfortable around minorities for fear of being labelled a racist. I have a similar worry around women. I think becoming racist would solve my concerns -- at least in my own mind. However, it doesn't make any sense to do that: individua…

I've had many of the same thoughts. To the point that I think I've become more racist because of them. Isn't that what racism is? Treating someone different because of their skin color?

I've instead resolved to think and worry less about it. I know I don't treat people different because of skin color, and that's good enough. If I'm rude to someone and they think it's race or gender related, that's their problem, not mine. (And I'm generally not a rude person, so it's not like happens all that often anyhow.)

What really started me down this path was a friend of mine (she's a "person of color") who honestly believes that "all white people are racist", "it's impossible to be racist against white people", and "all cops are corrupt", among other things.

After a while, I started to worry that all non-white people thought everyone was being racist all the time. Her poison infected me to the point that every time I passed a co-worker, I'd wonder if thought I was doing something racist at that moment.

I wasn't. I knew I wasn't. But I worried that they thought so.

But unless they're really good at hiding those feelings, they aren't thinking that. I know some of them well enough to know they'd show some outward sign of discomfort if that were the case.

In the end, I decided my friend was toxic to her own cause. Her constant (racist) posts about racism actually pushed me in the wrong direction, and I've had to correct for it.

Instead, I recognize that it's a kind of mental illness to expect everyone to be racist to you. Not just to guard against it, but to actually expect it. It's also a mental illness to think that nobody else could experience what you do, or understand it without actually experiencing it.

I can't fix those people. I can't only walk away and let them think whatever they want. I'll keep being a good person, and they'll have to deal with any bad feelings they're creating out of nothing.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#267
What an annoyingly selfish host. His job is to get his guests to talk not for him to bang-on about what he thinks they think.

Men talking over women - I see it all the time in the workplace and I know I do it myself.

Anyone know any techniques for stopping it when they notice it in a meeting ? Maybe interrupt then apologize and hand back to the person who was being ignored ?

Re: “Let her speak please”

#268
post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If you wear sexism-colored glasses, don't be surprised if everything looks like sexism." and if you wear glasses that block out sexism, don't be surprised if nothing looks like sexism.

So, how should I deal with it? The only way I see is to have an objective definition, which can be objectively applied no matter which glasses I wear. What would that definition of sexism be?

No, this is silly. All language and behaviour has context. This idea that you can eliminate the shades of grey to find some absolute definition is largely what makes me uncomfortable with the more extreme proponents of this stuff. Such as those who believe particular words in isolation are always bad regardless of context.

It would be much healthier culturally if we take into full consideration the meaning and intent of the accused, as well as the feelings of the apparent victim. Which I feel like the OP's comment highlights.

For ex, the moderator could have been oblivious to the fact she hadn't spoken much, as the only woman there, and when he asked the question he may indeed have been so excited that he spoke for her. The kind of people who get moderator jobs at big events like this are the extrovert types. The ones who talk before listening... so I don't think that is entirely unrealistic here.

An extrovert too busy looking for a chance to talk himself, instead of being sensitive to the amount others have spoken? This just as likely as him believing he could do a better job at explaining the subject, merely because she was a woman.

So if we look at the objective facts: that a lone woman on a panel wasn't allowed to speak, even when her expert subject was brought up, would seem like the moderator was sexist. But digging into the context it's possible there was far more to it and this is often lost in the shades of grey when you only view it from a single perspective.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#269
post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's worth considering that we're seeing some survivorship bias here - it's possible that she's the only woman on the panel because she thinks this way. In other words, it's possible that other women who would have seen this event as being rooted in sexism may eventually be a part of so many similar events during their career that they effectively burn out and switch to more female friendly fields. This has b…

If you wear sexism-colored glasses, don't be surprised if everything looks like sexism. That, I think, is what she's getting at. If you're always looking for a slight, always looking for a snide remark, you'll find it. Perception shapes reality.

Everything will look like sexism, including real sexism.

This is like basic thinking skills 101 here.

Let's simplify.

Let's say you perceive two rocks, one real and one fake.

Just because the fake rock is not real, does not mean the real rock is not real.

You're right, perception shapes reality. But apart from perception shaping reality, there is also an underlying reality beyond perception. A real rock is real.

In the story from TFA, I don't know if the sexism was real or perceived.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jesus Christ. Here's a thought, treat them as people and not "a black" or "a woman". You don't have to ingratiate yourself in the fear that some random person will think you're a racist. He's just a person going about his day delivering packages. He's got his own worries and concerns and things going on in his mind. "Is becoming a racist the best solution, so I'm able to function more effectively?" I can't tell if yo…

> He's just a person going about his day delivering packages. He's got his own worries and concerns and things going on in his mind. Of course. He could also be vigilantly looking for 'racists'. I really don't know. I'm using the theory of mind to construct a possible world view. My data set is Twitter/HN/reddit, mainly. I would love to treat everyone like a person, but if I do I leave myself vulnerable to accusation…

Speak your mind anyway. Many people on HN are under the same chilling effect as you. They say things they don't even believe because it's the right thing to say in coastal California.

In this day and age, you'll probably receive a couple of false accusations of racism and sexism per thousand interactions. You'll never be safe, so at least be honest.

If we're all dishonest, the tyrants win.

Aside: your postman sees people all day, he doesn't have time to assess your racial ideology (or lack thereof). Just be polite and receive your package. If he's being a dick, call him out. I had a UPS guy who would come by basically every day for a month, he'd announce my name from the package, but he'd always find a new way to mispronounce it (clearly intentional, he'd be grinning the whole time). His race never came to mind when I told him to go fuck himself when I switched to DHL.

I know that it's hard to imagine, but most non-white people are not the loony social justice types you see here and across the internet. In the U.S. West, some people are on edge w.r.t race because of their upbringing, but even then most are perfectly reasonable. You can probably tell which type of person you're working with by looking at them.

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