“Let her speak please” • Hacker News Board

Re: “Let her speak please”

#171

Post by d3ad1ysp0rk » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 1:40 PM UTC

curiousgal wrote: post #154

d3ad1ysp0rk wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Veronika stated quite clearly that sexism in STEM is an issue. Julia Evans has wrote in bulk regarding issues she has experienced and ways she is trying to get more women in STEM.

I didn't say the two categories are mutually exclusive. But you can notice where the bulk of each person's efforts is directed.

Who is to say that those people who's bulk of effort is spent programming, designing, or doing other technical activities don't appreciate the work other's do on a more full time basis to improve issues they see?

Re: “Let her speak please”

#172

Post by b6 » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 1:41 PM UTC

cooper12 wrote: post #24

marvin wrote: post #14

Aaaaaand it's flagged. No surprises there. I was refreshing every five minutes to see how long it would take. [Edit: Thanks to the mods for taking responsibility for allowing this discussion].

The mere thought that the world isn't a meritocracy frightens techbros. Any word ending in -ism is like a swear word to them. It's a really big problem that no one wants to acknowledge and if you do bring it up suddenly you're an SJW, combative, political, etc... It speaks numbers that in the link so many people had the same thought as the author, but were afraid to speak out. We've successfully stigmatized calling p…

> The mere thought that the world isn't a meritocracy frightens techbros.

People you disagree with are complicated people with complicated views. I don't think it's good to label them, treat them as one group, and characterize their views as just fear. How do you feel if I say "the mere thought that the world pretty much is a meritocracy frightens feminists"? Fair?

Re: “Let her speak please”

#173

Post by warent » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 1:42 PM UTC

forgotpw1123 wrote: post #150

The hell does this get on the front page? Serious HN, I expected to see something at least somewhat scientific. This is pure, 100%, facebook chain letter clickbait. I watched the video and everyone is talking over each other. Also what the hell is she wearing? She looks straight out of little house on the prairie. that last part was pure trolling

Are you really judging a woman's choice of clothing in a conversation about sexism? I'm no feminist but what the fuck

Re: “Let her speak please”

#174

Post by robotresearcher » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 1:42 PM UTC

exodust wrote: post #61

Quarrelsome wrote: post #35

he doesn't interrupt just her. His role is host, his role is to move the conversation about and yes he does fuck up by saying some stuff he should leave to her. However to me the evocative language used in the Facebook post suggests there is an aspect of deliberately seeking out "injustice" and being overly sensitive to it and seeing the world as a gender battle. If you're looking at the world through such a frame yo…

That's spot on. Unfortunately the swarm of social media opinion in support of the more scornful verdict, is what the news outlets pick up and run with regardless of truth. That said, he was insensitive at the point in question where he should have let her speak. You could sort of tell he was trying to organise and grasp the ideas in his own mind, probably in an effort to stay on top of things. A clumsy moderator mome…

> We all have the responsibility and option to guide things back on track

So the woman panelist failed in her responsibilities?

Nice try.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#175

Post by watwut » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 1:44 PM UTC

curiousgal wrote: post #138

Tiki wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The comment in full: Veronika Hubeny: I applaud your heroism in standing up for what you believe in! I know well the shaky feeling and subsequent exhilarated and heartwarmed contentment in the knowledge of having done the right thing, and I think that doing so has become more crucial than ever. Your behavior was inspiring and I’m glad that many of those inspired shared their gratitude with you. I guess that, being th…

>I never felt discriminated against or thwarted in my calling This just goes to prove my stance whenever the whole women in STEM fields debate is brought up. You have two kinds of women, those who are out there doing science, building things and being badasses (The likes of Veronika and Julia Evans, ones I consider as role-models) and then you have women that have questionable technical skills who keep whining about…

> and then you have women that have questionable technical skills who keep whining about sexism

I noted this as a pattern - if you complain about sexism then you put shadow over your technical skills. You have to choose between being seen as capable and between pointing out unfairness if you think it happens.

Also, Veronika Hubeny said that there is sexism in science. She did not had negative feelings about this panel. It is possible to watch the video and come to different interpretation as she did. Just like it is possible to see the video of someone accused of sexism and conclude it was not sexism. The latter is quite common occurence on these forums.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#176

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 1:45 PM UTC

FussyZeus wrote: post #168

trendia wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think he was doing that because he was sexist, I think he was doing that because he was really excited about the duality. The only way to improve society is to recognize when things are really done with ill intent and when they're the result of: geeking out + bad social skills

But again, his bad social skills only kicked in for the woman. We can't ever know for certain if it was sexism. I'm not saying take the guy out and shoot him. I'm not even saying do the thing we normally do and try and humiliate him in a public space. I'm saying: This is evidence of the accepted cultural norms in a society that I don't think anyone would disagree was largely designed by and is largely ruled over by m…

[deleted]

Re: “Let her speak please”

#177

Post by andrepd » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 1:46 PM UTC

throwaway91111 wrote: post #162

andrepd wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe you would like to address the substance of the comment, otherwise your only argument is "you are arguing and you shouldn't".

Substance? What does the comment bring up worth discussing? It's not clear the comment has any empathy for anyone involved but the asshole. What value could anyone gain from the comment? The game of "is it bigotry or just a terrible person" is never a fun game and leaves everyone bitter. One day it'll be nice to look at grey area and have the discussion center around what i'm looking at, rather than the fact it's gre…

The comment does make a point of substance. It argues that talking over other people isn't a symptom of sexism, and cites as evidence the fact than man and women alike are talked over by more confident extroverts, and thus that it is yes a problem but no not stemming from sexism. What it does not make is a point of substance with which you agree, or rather, which does not immediately stroke your pre-existing conceptions. The fact that in your mind this is immediately equated with "lack of substance" is deeply troubling, especially because I fear it's becoming an increasingly common way to think.

If I may I would suggest that you consider the theses and arguments presented by others at face value and consider them logically and rationally for what they are, and to do it before you analyse them in the framework of your pre-existing beliefs.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#178

Post by ssanders82 » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 1:47 PM UTC

discombobulate wrote: post #159

I received a delivery from a black gentleman today. Whilst reaching out for the package I was concerned he may think I'm racist if I wasn't excessively nice to him. I think I may be uncomfortable around minorities for fear of being labelled a racist. I have a similar worry around women. I think becoming racist would solve my concerns -- at least in my own mind. However, it doesn't make any sense to do that: individua…

Jesus Christ. Here's a thought, treat them as people and not "a black" or "a woman". You don't have to ingratiate yourself in the fear that some random person will think you're a racist. He's just a person going about his day delivering packages. He's got his own worries and concerns and things going on in his mind.

"Is becoming a racist the best solution, so I'm able to function more effectively?" I can't tell if you're being tongue-in-cheek here or have genuine social issues. My (admittedly somewhat harsh) advice is to close your IDE and go interact - in person - with other humans.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#179

Post by vog » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 1:47 PM UTC

_pmf_ wrote: post #169

FussyZeus wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd have to agree though that it's a remarkable coincidence that this only happened to the only female scientist who was part of the panel.

Maybe it happened to the least assertive person in the panel?

Yes, the moderator's behaviour would have been wrong against any person, no matter their gender. But it is especially inappropriate when done against those who have to endure this more than others throughout their life.

You don't need a sexist intent to behave sexist. Being ignorant to this issue doesn't make it much better. And calling the person from the audience "heckling" just because she made him aware of this issue is a very clear sign of ignorance.

At least he changed his behaviour nevertheless, although I'd attribute this more to the reaction of the rest of the audience.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#180

Post by _lex » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 1:48 PM UTC

novia wrote: post #157

dekhn wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it was really valuable to surface the feelings of the person who was the target of this discussion. It changes the perspective of the incident.

When you look at the full response though.. She is supportive of the woman in the audience who spoke up. Veronika Hubeny: I applaud your heroism in standing up for what you believe in! I know well the shaky feeling and subsequent exhilarated and heartwarmed contentment in the knowledge of having done the right thing, and I think that doing so has become more crucial than ever. Your behavior was inspiring and I’m glad…

I think it's worth considering that we're seeing some survivorship bias here - it's possible that she's the only woman on the panel because she thinks this way. In other words, it's possible that other women who would have seen this event as being rooted in sexism may eventually be a part of so many similar events during their career that they effectively burn out and switch to more female friendly fields.

This has been my experience working alongside women in software engineering - the ones who pay attention to how they might be treated differently leave.

It's also one of the hardest things about being black in tech - you must ignore many possible slights and assume that nobody is purposefully racist. You must construct alternative narratives to explain things that you see day in and day out, otherwise it's easy to get swallowed by doubt and lose your ability to contribute effectively. I call it assuming positive intent. It's how you survive.