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An Introduction to the CAN Bus: How to Programmatically Control a Car

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Re: An Introduction to the CAN Bus: How to Programmatically Control a Car

#91

Post by delfinom »

eloff wrote: post #10

Can you imagine the havok when terrorists figure out they can program cars to hunt and kill pedestrians in crowded spaces? Currently the terrorist needs to drive the vehicle, which makes it a suicide mission. How much more deadly would it be if it was reduced to just the cost of the car and a low chance of getting caught? How can we defend against this?

You can already do that. How do you think stunt cars work?

just throw in a off the shelf servo to control the steering wheel and two more to run the brakes and gas. Throw in a off the shelf RC controller and you got yourself a giant RC car.

Probably faster than trying to hack a car when you got a perfectly good no authentication interface.

Re: An Introduction to the CAN Bus: How to Programmatically Control a Car

#92

Post by King-Aaron »

chiph wrote: post #54
Declanomous wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Man, that's really cool. I'm really looking forward to all of this CAN Bus stuff being EOL in 10-25 years so I can get my hands on it at tinker with it.

There are used beds that use the bus available on eBay and other auction sites. Be aware that it's only on their high-end beds, If you're looking to bid on one, know that they weigh over 600 lbs and need wide doorways (ask me how I know..) Current prices are $900 and up, and often don't come with the inflatable mattresses (hospital may not want the potential biohazard liability, so disposes of it first).

> they weigh over 600 lbs and need wide doorways

Spot the Orderly?

Re: An Introduction to the CAN Bus: How to Programmatically Control a Car

#93

Post by softwarelimits »

Q: What is a good simulator for car hacking?

I expected to find some vehicle simulator that allows me to load several car specs, similar to a flight simulator. Plus integration of some advanced racing / driving software - I could not find any of these, but I am not an expert in this field.

Where to find these? THANKS!

Re: An Introduction to the CAN Bus: How to Programmatically Control a Car

#94

Post by Matthias247 »

_pmf_ wrote: post #4
maxxxxx wrote: post #3

Does anybody know where the trend is going? Do electric cars have standard buses or are they moving to proprietary (and not published) buses?

CAN will stay for quite a while, as will LIN. However, higher speed buses (esp. FlexRay and MOST) are very, very slowly being replaced by Automotive Ethernet (which uses a proprietary physical layer, called BroadR-Reach). Where CAN used checksums (additional, application layer checksum in addition to the protocol layer) to prevent tampering (modifying live data), the Ethernet based protocols will use what AUTOSAR cal…

That's all true. Just two few to add:

While CAN and LIN are used everywhere Flexray and MOST are used in different domains: Flexray for driving/safety related functions and MOST for infotainment.

CAN will have a speed improved version CAN FD, which might see a lot of use in the more driving related ECUs - some say it might replace FlexRay uses there.

Afaik SecOC can and will be used for all kinds of PDU based communication (Ethernet and CAN). The amount of PDUs which will be transmitted over Ethernet vs. classical bus systems will very heavily from OEM to OEM. Some are more invested in Ethernet, others not.

Re: An Introduction to the CAN Bus: How to Programmatically Control a Car

#95

Post by ocdtrekkie »

Matheus28 wrote: post #88
ocdtrekkie wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but bear in mind, the dashboard CAN bus port itself provides almost no access at all, and Tesla actually monitors their cars so they can call and threaten anyone who tries to connect to the actual diagnostics ports, which require a bit more work to get into. http://jalopnik.com/the-tesla-model-s-is-basically-a-good-lo...

You're thinking of the ODB II port, which has basically nothing in the Tesla. The CAN bus located under the cid actually has everything that goes through the car, it simply has a proprietary connector. There's also an ethernet port with a proprietary 4 pin connector, which is locked down by default. They haven't pulled that shit of calling people in a while.

Yeah, although it is wrong, I've been known to refer to the OBD2 port as a CAN port.

They may not be calling people, but you'd better believe they're still monitoring them.

Re: An Introduction to the CAN Bus: How to Programmatically Control a Car

#96

Post by brogrammer_1 »

djKianoosh wrote: post #72
scalio wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does that work only on US cars or internationally?

http://openxcplatform.com/hardware/vehicles.html says: "All Vehicles Sold in the U.S. Since 2008 (OBD-II on CAN)"

Ford runs a "World car" strategy so I'd expect the same thing to work internationally. OBD-II is a worldwide standard AFAIK too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_car

Re: An Introduction to the CAN Bus: How to Programmatically Control a Car

#97

Post by Piskvorrr »

babo wrote: post #17
eloff wrote: post #10

Can you imagine the havok when terrorists figure out they can program cars to hunt and kill pedestrians in crowded spaces? Currently the terrorist needs to drive the vehicle, which makes it a suicide mission. How much more deadly would it be if it was reduced to just the cost of the car and a low chance of getting caught? How can we defend against this?

A car could be self-driven while not connecting to any external networks. It still can get fresh traffic or weather data, but with those, you can't take over a car to make it a weapon.

Think Reflected XSS: weaponized string hidden in map data (road name even) in advance, is unwittingly integrated into offline map, triggers when a self-driving car tries to parse the data for that road segment, using a vulnerable library. Antyhing that uses network-contributed data is network-connected, even if the link is currently inactive (Case in point: Stuxnet).

Re: An Introduction to the CAN Bus: How to Programmatically Control a Car

#98

Post by Piskvorrr »

bluGill wrote: post #27
fivestar wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a hard time imagining self-driving cars merely negotiating the traffic I drive in each day much less deal with the myriad foreign policy and security issues that have led us to this point in time. Imagine the lawsuits if it can ever be proved that a murder was committed by someone hacking an automobile--and I do suspect it has already happened. The drive-by-wire gas pedal and shifter in my car cause me concern…

The self driving car doesn't need to be perfect, it needs to be better than humans. That is a much lower bar. Self driving cars have already demonstrated their ability to handle traffic better than humans, but there are other situations where they are much worse.

The issue is not even with self-driving, this concerns any "connected" car. Remember the chrome box? (a device from the ancient era of phreaking, allowing to control traffic lights - some of them had an external input only protected by obfuscation, intended for prioritizing emergency vehicles) Is it so hard to imagine an external controller for all the other networked cars out there? (Remember, there are many ways a modern car is networked, some of them wireless - the FM radio is plugged into a CAN, and has digital data band; how does that sound?) Full control not necessary - just annoy the driver sufficiently to make them get out of the road (e.g. full throttle AC plus force hazard lights on).

Re: An Introduction to the CAN Bus: How to Programmatically Control a Car

#99

Post by taneq »

throwaway899 wrote: post #56
kensai wrote: post #48

In the last picture in the blog post, does he really run a script for Celsius? Because at 67 degrees you are certainly dead! :D

Why would you be dead at 67 celsius..? I go in to a room near 100 Celsius every weekend (also known as sauna)

Huh, this made me curious about saunas and how they're survivable if they're that hot, since I've never been in one myself. Apparently the air inside saunas is very dry (making sweating very effective), even though they're traditionally pictured as being steamy? Would I be right in saying there's very little air movement in one, as well? I'm guessing there's a lot of boundary layer type effects going on.

Edit: The Wikipedia entry's description makes no sense. The hottest saunas have low humidity levels produced by pouring water on hot stones? And the people in the sauna are below the dew point and so have condensation forming on them rather than evaporating? How then do they shed the heat?

Re: An Introduction to the CAN Bus: How to Programmatically Control a Car

#100

Post by steiner_j »

luckydude wrote: post #51

So this not that thrilling but my BMW r1200gs has this bus. I dropped the bike recently and killed one of the turn signals. Canbus lit up saying you have a light out. I fixed the turn signal and it still lit up. I thought I needed to reset it or something. Turns out I killed the headlight in the drop as well. Without the canbus it would have been months before I would have caught that. I thought it was a BMW over-the…

If you want to see what's possible with a BMW r1200gs CAN Bus hacking have a look here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ6LvHBWGio http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=69676
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