come to Curbside https://curbside.com/jobs/, half of the engineers, half of the employees are female. Half of the employees are non-white. ALL YOU NEED TO BE IS SMART.
Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?
481–490 of 512 posts
Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?
#482Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes, though the truth of your statement doesn't detract from the truth of my statement. We can't change our gender or race but we can change our outlook.
The problem here is that "outlook" hardly does justice to a very complex situation. The implication that oppressed peoples who have been genuinely wronged merely need to put on a happy face and change their attitude is pretty horrendous. It ignores the fact that smooth social skills take time and opportunity to develop. It ignores the fact that if you are "the wrong kind of people" you do not get the benefit of the d…
As far as I can tell, your comment has little to nothing to do with mine, due to an ungenerous interpretation.
Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?
#483Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's generic good advice but some people need it more than others. Large companies may be a problem though. The interview process is generic and you probably won't meet your direct manager; you're just evaluating a somewhat random sample of people. But asking to meet them later (before accepting the offer) might work.
Other than Google or for new grads, what companies do not have the team with the opening do the actual interviewing? In both I have worked for, and every one I have interviewed with except Google, candidates interview with the people they will be working with, including their manager.
I meant Google. (I wasn't sure if other large companies do the same thing?)
Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?
#484Earlier quoted context omitted.
Whether sexism is acceptable in the workplace is not up for discussion. So the parent is totally right to educate the grandparent about this. You may not like the tone, but substantively wpietri is right on the mark.
I don't think either of them are addressing whether sexism is acceptable in the workplace. They're talking about whether a "fun" culture is an indicator of sexism in the workplace. If you have another interpretation and the time to break it down, I'm always interested in understanding things from other people's perspectives. Victorhooi is arguing that alcohol culture is not exclusive to men, but according to personal…
Sure. The issue here isn't whether a fun culture is always a problem. Sometimes a foosball table is just a foosball table. The issue here is that victorhooi is totally oblivious to how sexism manifests itself in the workplace, and wpietri is responding to this obliviousness.
There is no nice or polite way to tell somebody "this is sexist, cut it out", because when sexism (or racism, ableism, other bigotry) is pointed out people tend to react in a really defensive manner. They deny, deflect, lash out, or just change the subject. When the core message is a personal criticism then softer language doesn't make it go down easier. When it comes to these subjects, when no feelings are hurt no minds are changed. Nobody should be unnecessarily rude, of course, but "unnecessarily" is the pivotal word here.
victorhooi turns the discussion towards his own experiences about alcohol, fun culture, ping pong, and extrapolates from there. The problem is that his experiences are not representative of what women in tech experience at all, and it's particularly clueless for a guy to respond in a thread asking for advice from women in tech about what _his_ experiences are and how everything is totally fine (for him). Every woman in tech has personally experienced or personally knows somebody who has faced sexual harassment or other gender based discrimination. Every woman in tech who changes jobs has to ensure that the new work environment is not a dumpster fire. And if you're unlucky your boss may still decide on hit on you 4 months after you've bought a house in the new city. This practically never happens to men, so when victorhoi repeatedly claims that "gender or alcohol [...] flows both ways" or that "it's just a matter of self-control" he seems totally unware of the gendered problems that are so prevalent. He dismisses it outright "you get the occasional stupid comment" (when you don't drink), as if that is the extent of the problem! He doesn't get that it's not about him. He doesn't get that his experiences are not representative for women in tech.
Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?
#485Earlier quoted context omitted.
Compared to what :)? I agree that snark like that is more likely to alienate then convict, but it is not modern invention.
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2017/06/05/jordan_pe... "They believe that since you don't have an individual identity, your fundamental identity is group fostered, and that means that you're basically an exemplar of your race. Hence, white privilege. Or you're an exemplar of your gender, or your sex, or your ethnicity, or you're an exemplar of however you can be classified so that you are placed in the posit…
Thay is not different from past or traditional view of neither gender nor race.
Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?
#486Earlier quoted context omitted.
Again, you have generated and extraordinary amount of opinion given that this post was not for you and given your ignorance of the topic. I understand you don't see why these things are problems. What is extraordinary to me is that you have confused "I don't see X" with "X does not exist". And then gone on to blather extensively based on this confusion. I get it. You're a paragon of self control. Congrats. Have a coo…
>this post was not for you >your ignorance of the topic >blather extensively >Have a cookie. >Irrelevant to you, as a financially comfortable white man. >ignorantly proclaiming on the topic is not fine >You are part of the problem This isn't meaningful discussion. It's just insults, assumptions, and aggressive dismissal of another person's opinion.
The guy aggressively jumped into a discussion addressed to women in tech, dismissing the premise in a way that's actively harmful to underrepresented minorities in tech. The first time I was reasonably polite. The second time, frank.
Exactly none of those statements is a personal insult. Some are assumptions, but all are reasonable. If I got something wrong, he can correct me.
I will note that you are also a white dude, and have spent a lot of energy on "aggressive dismissal" of people's concerns here. So apparently you're fine with the behavior as long as it reinforces the status quo.
Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?
#487Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't think either of them are addressing whether sexism is acceptable in the workplace. They're talking about whether a "fun" culture is an indicator of sexism in the workplace. If you have another interpretation and the time to break it down, I'm always interested in understanding things from other people's perspectives. Victorhooi is arguing that alcohol culture is not exclusive to men, but according to personal…
Sure. The issue here isn't whether a fun culture is always a problem. Sometimes a foosball table is just a foosball table. The issue here is that victorhooi is totally oblivious to how sexism manifests itself in the workplace, and wpietri is responding to this obliviousness. There is no nice or polite way to tell somebody "this is sexist, cut it out", because when sexism (or racism, ableism, other bigotry) is pointed…
Thank you. I really appreciate this, it's super helpful to see this kind of breakdown.
Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?
#488I am a woman and work in Boston as an engineer currently programming web apps for a consulting company. I had plenty of good experiences but also had a couple of bad ones. I could always catch something during the interview and or when you walk in. I would first evaluate the employer before I evaluate the team. You will need to find an employer that think highly of women. The founder of my company relies heavily on a…
Somebody also has to be the first strong female employee in any given company. Obviously headcount is a huge factor here, but in isolation I honestly think that kind of reasoning can be misleading. If you are interviewing and discount an otherwise promising potential employer out of hand for not having enough women onboard already, what can they do to rebalance the situation beyond continuing to bring a diverse range…
Which assumes that there isn't a strong female employee to start with.
Someone has to be the first employee.
Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?
#489Earlier quoted context omitted.
Aren't you essentially making the argument that you are most comfortable working with people similar to yourself? Which is not a criticism. It's completely understandable. But how, then, do we get all of us (you, me, etc...) to feel comfortable working together, despite any particular differences? (I don't have any easy answers, and I may not even be someone whose opinion means much on this subject. I honestly got so…
You might find this fascinating: http://ncase.me/polygons/ It's an interactive thought exercise that posits: Given a mild preference to be near similar people, segregation will occur, unless there's also an explicit desire to be near dissimilar people too.
That is interesting. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.
Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?
#490Earlier quoted context omitted.
I actually like the parable because it hints at another side to the issue, which is the perceiver, and though I'm not a woman I do get to sit in one type of disadvantaged social role in life, so I can relate. And I've given this some thought. First off, while it's true that social factors are real, provable with data, and very annoyingly denied by many out there, the degree to which we tie our personal identity to a…
First off, while it's true that social factors are real, provable with data, and very annoyingly denied by many out there, the degree to which we tie our personal identity to a disadvantaged social identity is up to us. Evidence is pretty easy: talk to people in your disadvantaged social group and ask what they think. Probably most will acknowledge that it's a problem but that they can overcome it through working har…
Didn't say the story was meant to be taken at face value, only that the idea that you have some degree of control over your life is empowering and I think leads to more happiness.
It's useful to look into research into optimism and pessimism: especially Learned Helplessness, which is what happens if (as I had in the past) one slips into thinking that they have zero power over their lives, and that your social factors determine everything.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness
I recall that a study found that pessimists were actually more accurate in that their perception of reality was closer to what actually happens. But optimists were happier.
I don't know the specifics of your situation, but if prosody can be at all learned or improved, then that's something that can be changed, which is a lot more than some of the other stuff out there like skin color or height.
Anyways, I appreciate your thoughts on the matter. I don't want to dissuade anyone from standing up/fighting the good fight for social causes. But as someone who naturally skews pessimistic and struggled with depression, maintaining the semblance of control over my life, even if it's not real, has helped tremendously. And I hope it helps others too.
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> Tell the story again and say that one of the travelers is black and the other white or one is male and the other female or one is rich and the other poor and see how you feel then about acting like your attitude alone determines your social outcomes.
I'm not sure that's the way I'd think of it. More like: imagine two travelers, both are black, or both are gay, and they're exactly the same in all regards (thought experiment!), and one person believes that them being in group X means people treat them unfairly, while the other doesn't. They will have different interpretations of events, leading to different responses, leading to different lives. As I said above, taking the stance that we can control our lives leads to improving our lives, taking the stance that social factors are the biggest leads to us I think improving society in the best case, or learned helplessness in the worst case. The former is easier to do than the latter.
And that's a practical thought experiment, because you can change your outlook over time, it's the whole point of therapy. Those two travelers are the same person at different points in their lives.