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Alex Honnold Scales El Capitan Without Ropes, and the Climbing World Reels

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Re: Alex Honnold Scales El Capitan Without Ropes, and the Climbing World Reels

#341

Post by cjonas »

kbenson wrote: post #331
cjonas wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you could say the same thing about top-roping vs lead climbing (placing protection from the ground up). Yes, top-roping is much safer, but the experience & sense of achievement is just not the same. Free-soloing (climbing without ropes) is the purest form of climbing. Not stopping to place protection, not having to bring up your partner, not having to haul a bag... It's just you on the wall. It takes most climber mul…

> If you really want to understand just how impressive this was: I have no doubt it's impressive. I'm impressed. I'm not trying to diminish that in any way. > you could say the same thing about top-roping vs lead climbing (placing protection from the ground up). Yes, top-roping is much safer, but the experience & sense of achievement is just not the same. My question is why is the sense of achievement not the same. I…

> Here's the question: If you could Free-solo the same wall but with without (or greatly reduced) danger? That is, hypothetically assume there's tracks installed vertically in the wall, and a robot that you are attached to ascends with you, so if you fall the robot keeps you from falling far and getting hurt. Does that somehow dampen the feeling of achievement when completed? If the answer is yes, then I fail to see how it's not about cheating death in some part.

There are certainly climbers who COULD repeat the climb in the same style, if they were guaranteed they couldn't fall to their death (Tommy Caldwell being one of them). And yes, without the risk the achievement definitely doesn't seem as impressive (moon landing?).

But I don't think Alex see's it like he's "cheating death". Instead more of "confidence in mastery of ones skill and mind" to a point where the crazy & impossible seems realistic.

Re: Alex Honnold Scales El Capitan Without Ropes, and the Climbing World Reels

#342

Post by tmh79 »

kbenson wrote: post #331
cjonas wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you could say the same thing about top-roping vs lead climbing (placing protection from the ground up). Yes, top-roping is much safer, but the experience & sense of achievement is just not the same. Free-soloing (climbing without ropes) is the purest form of climbing. Not stopping to place protection, not having to bring up your partner, not having to haul a bag... It's just you on the wall. It takes most climber mul…

> If you really want to understand just how impressive this was: I have no doubt it's impressive. I'm impressed. I'm not trying to diminish that in any way. > you could say the same thing about top-roping vs lead climbing (placing protection from the ground up). Yes, top-roping is much safer, but the experience & sense of achievement is just not the same. My question is why is the sense of achievement not the same. I…

Free soloing is "inherently easier" in the physical sense when you abstract danger from situation, climbing with ropes slows a team down significantly. That is one of the reasons AH was able to climb the route in 4 hours as opposed to the usual 4 days.

In your hypothetical scenario the answer is yes, if there is no danger, the achievement of climbing without ropes is lessened.

The experience of free soloing is to small degree about cheating death, at least as much as watching a movie is about seeing moving colors and hearing sounds. What one really gets from free soloing (or risky rock climbing, which I have some experience with) is a unique clarity of mind, a change in ego, a confidence game, where you need to quash your own doubts about yourself to succeed. The consequences of falling are a necessary but insufficient condition for the resultant feeling of achievement. In my opinion, AH, and his ability to control his mind, is the closest living example we have to a Jedi.

Re: Alex Honnold Scales El Capitan Without Ropes, and the Climbing World Reels

#343

Post by skookumchuck »

viraptor wrote: post #281
psyc wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I take the same thing from that quote. I have a good friend who has become one of the top competition paraglider pilots in the world. A lot of paragliders see him as doing terrifying, reckless things. He's told me that he considers himself a conservative pilot, and that he doesn't take risks. I agree with his self-assessment. I've known him a long time, and saw him ascend through a long, well-ordered series of increm…

I've never heard anyone describe themselves as a reckless or unsafe driver. I'm sure majority of people before accidents say they're conservative drivers. Maybe he's right, but... self-assessments of skills are rarely useful. Survival bias and all that.

A combat fighter pilot once told me that 90% of pilots were fearful they were not good enough, and covered it up with bravado and drinking. The other 10% knew they were good enough.

Re: Alex Honnold Scales El Capitan Without Ropes, and the Climbing World Reels

#344

Post by crikli »

kbenson wrote: post #331
cjonas wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you could say the same thing about top-roping vs lead climbing (placing protection from the ground up). Yes, top-roping is much safer, but the experience & sense of achievement is just not the same. Free-soloing (climbing without ropes) is the purest form of climbing. Not stopping to place protection, not having to bring up your partner, not having to haul a bag... It's just you on the wall. It takes most climber mul…

> If you really want to understand just how impressive this was: I have no doubt it's impressive. I'm impressed. I'm not trying to diminish that in any way. > you could say the same thing about top-roping vs lead climbing (placing protection from the ground up). Yes, top-roping is much safer, but the experience & sense of achievement is just not the same. My question is why is the sense of achievement not the same. I…

"Does that somehow dampen the feeling of achievement when completed? If the answer is yes, then I fail to see how it's not about cheating death in some part."

It's a good question...but I think only Alex could answer that question for himself.

I can say that the feat would not be as impressive because fear management and mental control are a huge part of climbing. As you move from top roping to sport leading (clipping your rope to preplaced hangers) to trad leading (placing your protective gear into cracks or other features in the rocks and trusting it to hold you if you fall) the risk increases and the fear start to become more of a factor.

I've seen climbers that have been perfectly physically capable of making a move but have been so gripped with fear that they couldn't move (and I've been that climber). I've done multipitch climbs (where you climb multiple rope lengths) where at the end of the climb I'm completely exhausted. Not from the physical exertion, but rather from the mental exertion of keeping fear at bay and from the sheer focus that climbing takes.

And honestly, I can see the appeal of free soloing. Protective gear is a giant pain in the ass. It's heavy. It's noisy. On lead the weight of the rope can become a very present annoyance, especially if you're on a long pitch. I would love for there to be the magical robot of your hypothesis that allowed me to climb without all that shit. But such a thing doesn't exist and my personal risk envelope has not expanded to free soloing (nor will it).

Re: Alex Honnold Scales El Capitan Without Ropes, and the Climbing World Reels

#345

Post by SamReidHughes »

Lordarminius wrote: post #19
twoodfin wrote: post #6

There's a great documentary on the climbing culture of Yosemite and its evolution (including the equilibrium-punctuating arrival of Alex Honnold) available at least on Netflix: Valley Uprising . Worth a watch.

equilibrium-punctuating arrival of Alex Honnold... Yeah, I guess that just about describes the guys career. Fun question: which people in other disciplines have had the same shattering effect in their field ? I can think of Bobby Fischer and Garry Kasparov in Chess.

Tiger Woods, Old Tom Morris, a whole crapton of scientists and musicians.

Re: Alex Honnold Scales El Capitan Without Ropes, and the Climbing World Reels

#347

Post by Rapzid »

kbenson wrote: post #331
cjonas wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you could say the same thing about top-roping vs lead climbing (placing protection from the ground up). Yes, top-roping is much safer, but the experience & sense of achievement is just not the same. Free-soloing (climbing without ropes) is the purest form of climbing. Not stopping to place protection, not having to bring up your partner, not having to haul a bag... It's just you on the wall. It takes most climber mul…

> If you really want to understand just how impressive this was: I have no doubt it's impressive. I'm impressed. I'm not trying to diminish that in any way. > you could say the same thing about top-roping vs lead climbing (placing protection from the ground up). Yes, top-roping is much safer, but the experience & sense of achievement is just not the same. My question is why is the sense of achievement not the same. I…

I think it has more to do with agency than thrills.. You could look at that as cheating death, but it's not quite the same as jumping 20 buses on a Triumph and just hoping you don't break all your bones cause, you know, it just seems to happen to you frequently and maybe this time it won't.

The game is just different. The mental state is different. The focus is different.

Look, ignore the utility differences between scooting around on your butt and walking, running, or cycling. The sense of agency involved is simply different. They are also, possibly, more risky than scooting around on your butt.

Bowling without bumpers has a different feel to it than with; even if you never touch them. It's not so much about cheating the gutter; the agency, the feel, the game is different.

It's hard to explain why free solo > trad > sport > top roping for some. But it has everything to do with risk while having nothing to do with risk.

Re: Alex Honnold Scales El Capitan Without Ropes, and the Climbing World Reels

#348

Post by Zergy »

eagletusk wrote: post #304
dagw wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If he found himself unable to continue due to injury or fatigue they'd be able to help him down. But yea, extremely dumb comment.

Maybe for like 0.5% of the climb they could do that, if Alex was close and he could somehow get a harness on, they could help him. If he got injured it's not like he could step left and there is a magical video game ledge that appears, It's all or nothing.

Its a multi pitch route. There are multiple ledges that can be comfortably sat on. Assuming the injury isn't to catastrophic he could make it to one of those points and be rescued.

That being said anyone trying to claim the climb isn't "pure" enough it mental.

Re: Alex Honnold Scales El Capitan Without Ropes, and the Climbing World Reels

#349

Post by crikli »

tmh79 wrote: post #342
kbenson wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you really want to understand just how impressive this was: I have no doubt it's impressive. I'm impressed. I'm not trying to diminish that in any way. > you could say the same thing about top-roping vs lead climbing (placing protection from the ground up). Yes, top-roping is much safer, but the experience & sense of achievement is just not the same. My question is why is the sense of achievement not the same. I…

Free soloing is "inherently easier" in the physical sense when you abstract danger from situation, climbing with ropes slows a team down significantly. That is one of the reasons AH was able to climb the route in 4 hours as opposed to the usual 4 days. In your hypothetical scenario the answer is yes, if there is no danger, the achievement of climbing without ropes is lessened. The experience of free soloing is to sma…

That last paragraph is brilliant and I'm going to borrow it to use in conversations with my friends and family who have been asking me about Alex's climb and about free soloing.

Re: Alex Honnold Scales El Capitan Without Ropes, and the Climbing World Reels

#350

Post by skookumchuck »

cgh wrote: post #154
tuna-piano wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alex is famous because he does "free soloing" - which doesn't use any ropes or safety at all. More people do "free climbing" which uses ropes just in case of fall. Anyone have any idea how often free climbers end up falling and needing their ropes? Could many good free climbers do what Honnold did, but just like the added bits of safety?

When working moves, you fall constantly. I was out on Saturday working on my latest project and I probably fell twenty times. Honnold worked Freerider extensively and no doubt fell a lot while getting it all dialed in.

If you don't fall in practice now and then, you won't find where the limits are.
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