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On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs nets a higher return

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Re: On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs nets a higher return

#651

Post by wink »

Totally different data point: I've studied in Germany (Computer Science) and it was basically free (had to pay a few bucks for a few semesters, let's say below 3000 EUR in total) - and I still sometimes wonder if it was worth it.

Why? I've never worked for a company that had the slightest interest in my CS degree (it's a german diploma, roughly equivalent to a MSc). Maybe at some point in the future I'll try to work for one where they prefer to tick this box off - but right now in terms of money it's been useless. All my coworkers in these companies are paid roughly the same amount, or if not, it's different factors, but not the degree. I am also not a recent graduate (2010) but interviews in different companies than the ones I worked on showed a general lack of interest in formal education, but I guess getting an intro by someone working there or knowing you from conferences/meetups already helps.

But why am I debating? I lost time studying and working part-time where I could've worked full-time already. I don't want to question the validity of this CS degree, but I was working as a programmer already before I started.

Re: On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs nets a higher return

#652

Post by wedesoft »

Education should be free to begin with. An educated population ensures productivity and progress. Money is just a means to allocate resources. If the productivity is down because the workforce is not skilled enough to compete, that money is going to be as valuable as the paper it is printed on.

Re: On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs nets a higher return

#653

Post by vkou »

exclusiv wrote: post #647
vkou wrote: post #643

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Never lived in a place that didn't need doctors or CEOs, either. "Become a tradesperson" is useful advice for an individual, and completely useless as a solution to the economic problems of non-coastal towns.

I'd urge you to explore some other great cities like Nashville, Minneapolis, Chicago, Austin, St. Louis, Milwaukee, Denver and all the suburbs and even small towns surrounding them. You're so hung up on the CEO thing which is irrelevant. We don't need more CEOs just like we don't need more lawyers and doctors. And you mention doctors - those are needed in any town of size anyway. My own grandfather was a doctor in a…

I urge you to look past the suburbs that ring metro areas, and a bit further out.

I've just driven out to Whidbey Island this past weekend - a 70 minute drive from Seattle. Beautiful place. Economically, it's also dying, and not because the people who live there are lazy bastards. If it didn't have a US Navy base, it would be dead. As a young person, you'd be insane to stay there.

In order to feed your uncle and father-in-law, small towns must have something to export.

It could be lumber. It could be coal. It could be applications for social security. It could be people, who work in the city, and live in their community, 40 miles away. But it has to be something.

Small towns that have an export - one big enough to feed all the doctors, cops, plumbers, politicians, realtors, teachers, babysitters, bricklayers, HVAC installers, and other people who bring no money into their economy can do reasonably well for themselves.

Those that don't are in a death spiral, and it won't matter if you replaced every person in them with a skilled contractor overnight.

Re: On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs nets a higher return

#654

Post by exclusiv »

vkou wrote: post #653
exclusiv wrote: post #647

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd urge you to explore some other great cities like Nashville, Minneapolis, Chicago, Austin, St. Louis, Milwaukee, Denver and all the suburbs and even small towns surrounding them. You're so hung up on the CEO thing which is irrelevant. We don't need more CEOs just like we don't need more lawyers and doctors. And you mention doctors - those are needed in any town of size anyway. My own grandfather was a doctor in a…

I urge you to look past the suburbs that ring metro areas, and a bit further out. I've just driven out to Whidbey Island this past weekend - a 70 minute drive from Seattle. Beautiful place. Economically, it's also dying, and not because the people who live there are lazy bastards. If it didn't have a US Navy base, it would be dead. As a young person, you'd be insane to stay there. In order to feed your uncle and fath…

I see what you're saying and a lot of small towns that once thrived are dying but your argument doesn't prove the dream is dead because:

1) the American Dream has included a college education as a general requirement for quite some time now. People that live in small towns, esp. mid-sized ones that rely on Naval bases or other similar economic drivers as the example you provided generally aren't part of this group

2) it ignores that the Dream is alive and well elsewhere

Nobody should expect to get a college education and go live in any given town and be set for life. That's not practical. Economies change, but the opportunities are still out there.

If you believe people should be entitled to make a living wherever they grow up (or choose) forever, then yes the American Dream doesn't exist because your expectations are out of line with capitalism.

That's not fair; it's alive if you aren't stubborn with occupational choices and where you live. It sucks to move but people need to get over that fear.

Re: On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs nets a higher return

#655

Post by lucb1e »

whyenot wrote: post #136

Tuition at a California State University is only $5,472 a year. That is pretty darn close to free. Many other state schools have low tuition. Nearly 500,000 students in California attend a CSU. Almost twice as many students as attend a UC school. Yet, in these kind of analyses, these low cost state schools always seem to get the shaft when in fact they educate a tremendous number of students at very low cost. https:/…

> [>$5000] is pretty darn close to free.

We pay €2000 annually and think it's not cheap since neighboring countries get it for free.

Re: On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs nets a higher return

#656

Post by dragonwriter »

> On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs nets a higher return

Yeah, but you can't get grants or subsidized loans to invest, and, anyhow, people go to college because of what it does for their choice of kind of work, not just for financial returns (well, and for non-career reasons, but that is a whole different issue.)

Re: On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs nets a higher return

#658

Post by thesagan »

flubert wrote: post #569
wmeredith wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I came here to say this. My wife left the private sector four years ago to work in higher ed. This was a huge epiphany to both of us after she had been there a while and we could see the big picture from the inside. Sure there are a couple other factors at play, but it's small potatoes, comparatively. If you look at the big state schools and the support they receive from the community, they've systematically had thei…

Is there a name for the "law" that you can always find "credible" information supporting both sides of any issue? http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/02/09/considerations-on-cost-...

"Fair and balanced?"

Re: On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs nets a higher return

#659

Post by lmm »

bbcbasic wrote: post #645
lmm wrote: post #644

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Externalities are a small, specific issue and we have ways of dealing with them. Again, how do you propose to measure this "value for society"?

Externialities. Like climate change? Yep we've got that under complete control. Another good example of chasing the mighty fractionally reserved greenback: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14495950

So do you have a proposed improvement? I think taking schooling time away from history and sport and putting it towards coding would make us more, not less, likely to solve climate change.

Re: On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs nets a higher return

#660

Post by GFischer »

reading-at-work wrote: post #537
ue_ wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How might one get experience? For example, I want to try programming for a client, but I don't even know where to find such a thing. I've programmed for a while by myself, but I have no connections. And to get experience, many companies want you to have experience, so that becomes a catch-22. This is why I viewed having a degree as having a foot in the door, as it were.

You could try Upwork. It basically lets you be a contractor, remotely, for programming projects that people have.

That should be a last resort, though.

Any kind of business networking event will help you uncover people with problems, which might translate into customers.

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