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Uber Fires More Than 20 Employees in Harassment Probe

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Re: Uber Fires More Than 20 Employees in Harassment Probe

#201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Harassment encompasses a wide range of behaviors besides "asking another adult if they want to have sex with you," from _continuing to ask someone after they've turned you down_, to inappropriate touching, to quid-pro-quo, where career advancement, or good work assignments, are tied to sexual favors. These offers don't need to be explicit. It's difficult to do your best work when you don't feel safe in the workplace.…

But none of those other behaviors happened at Uber. It was literally someone asking another adult if they want to have sex. How childish are we to get upset over this? I can understand that feeling uncomfortable is not good. Lots of things make lots of people uncomfortable. Maybe the issue is that Americans become uncomfortable too easily? Or do not know how to handle feeling uncomfortable?

It wasn't just another adult, it was her direct manager. The person she depends on for her livelihood was propositioning her over the company chat software. There is rarely a good outcome in these situations, and in the BEST case it changes the employee/manager relationship drastically.

If someone propositions me at a bar, I can roll my eyes and walk away. If a friend propositions me, I can say "no" and decide whether or not I want to continue being friends with them. If my manager propositions me, I'm put in a -- not just an "uncomfortable" position -- but a really bad one that might seriously impact my life and my family's life.

About a year ago I momentarily misinterpreted a conversation over company chat with my new manager and thought he was about to sexually proposition me -- similar to what Fowler experienced. I don't want to give too many details, but it turned out to be _entirely_ harmless, there was just a cultural divide and he had a poor choice of words and the rest of the conversational context was unfortunate, but I pretty quickly figured out what he was talking about without him being any the wiser. But in that one second, it was like my entire world stopped. Like, heart pounding, vision narrowing, stomach dropped.

I'm a 28 year old woman, I've been propositioned plenty of times before (from "graphic drunk bar type stuff" to "politely asked on a date by a co-worker in another department" -- not a big deal in either case), but it's never caused such an immediate physical reaction like that. My mind just started racing, trying desperately to figure out how to handle it, staring at the screen in a literal physical cold sweat, and coming up with nothing good.

I was new in the company and I needed my manager's approval to succeed. He sits right across from me. I had just gotten married two weeks before, just gotten back from my honeymoon, my savings are depleted and I can't pay my mortgage without my job. My husband can't support both of us. I barely know my manager -- what would he do if I said "no"? If someone's capable of overstepping a huge boundary like this -- sexually propositioning a new employee they're managing -- what else are they capable of? Is this what I'd have to deal with for the rest of my time at the company? How do I stop it? Can I stop it? There are no female co-workers in the office -- there's no one to talk to for help.

I'm very glad (understatement) that this turned out to not be the case, and my momentary panic was just the result of a misunderstanding, but it really gave me insight into the problem that cases of sexual harassment like this can cause. This is NOT just "one adult asking another adult if they want to have sex." I've been asked for sex before -- even by relative strangers. I've asked other people for sex before. Heck, in my younger, single, wild days, I've consented to sex with relative strangers! I've gone on to have good friendships with people I've turned down sex from. I'll even admit to fantasizing about the odd boss or co-worker over the years, sure, but I keep it in my head. But actually being propositioned by a manager, in real life, on a Tuesday morning at your desk, in the real world with real world implications? It was absolutely terrifying for reasons that have nothing to do with sex.

Re: Uber Fires More Than 20 Employees in Harassment Probe

#202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Seems risky to hire a recent Uber employee at this point because bringing a toxic sexist into the company can inflict massive damage. Jesus. They are still people. You want to ostracize them from all society and prevent them from earning a living in their chosen career? 'Sexual harassment' is also a catch-all term that can encompass all kinds of actions. It could involve a clueless, inexperienced 20-something asking…

As a counter argument, complicit nazis who did not have a direct hand in the gas chambers are also people, but I doubt many people sympathize with their ability to live their lives normally after the war.

Counter argument in a nutshell.

Re: Uber Fires More Than 20 Employees in Harassment Probe

#203

The article doesn't discuss the seniority of the fired employees. It's very hard to distinguish between scapegoating and actually working to fix the problem without that information. The problem with Uber isn't that some employees engage in sexual harassment. The problem is that there's a culture where sexual harassment isn't taken seriously, is tolerated if the perpetrators are "high performing" in other respects, a…

Wouldn't scapegoats file wrongful termination suits? Seems like a hell of a risk for illegitimate firings.

The suggestion is not that those who were fired did nothing wrong. It's that they are being made to take the fall to shield higher-ups who also have done things wrong.

Re: Uber Fires More Than 20 Employees in Harassment Probe

#204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about a zenifits job? They had to BAN sex in the stairwells and drinking on the job

Having a problem and addressing it is different than having a problem and not addressing it for years (and yeah, I might ask an ex-Zenefits prospect how they felt about that). Is that unclear or difficult to understand?

I think you read tone into my comment where there was none. Mine was a valid question; "in your opinion, iss Zenifits also seen poorly on a resume, given the fact that it is known that the CEO had to step down and they had to take measures to ban sex and drinking in the office, and this is amplified by the fact that they are a freaking HR company" -

- I would think that if anyone is familiar with the Valley, that they would certainly know the Zenifits story and should rightfully-aise eyebrows if they see the positions on a resume...

I wasnt challenging your comment, I wa agreeing with it and adding zenefits to the naughty list.

Re: Uber Fires More Than 20 Employees in Harassment Probe

#205

Feels somewhat symbolic at this point. The massively corrupt shop decides to fire a bunch of people who max out the acceptable level of corruption. Even how they hired Holder feels like a PR tactic; a man who was against all the US torture techniques ( http://fightthefuture.org/articles/the-rescue-of-eric-holder... ) and yet prosecuted no one. He is the image of a career, PR frontman. I'm still going to take Lyft ove…

I disagree. This is the proper course of action when you have a harassment problem. Fire people. It's fine if you want to take Lyft... I have been choosing Lyft from the beginning. But I applaud Uber for doing this investigation. I'm honestly baffled that people are criticizing them for it. If there are people the investigation missed, that's a problem, but it's a separate issue and we have no evidence of it at this…

The criticism is largely because there's no transparency into it. Yes, the proper course of action when you have a harassment problem is to fire people, but you also have to fire the right people. Firing those who commit the harassment is one part, but you also need to fire those who cover up and permit the harassment to happen. We also don't know how high up the people who were fired are. If they only fired a handful of junior engineers, that's not going to help.

Re: Uber Fires More Than 20 Employees in Harassment Probe

#206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having a problem and addressing it is different than having a problem and not addressing it for years (and yeah, I might ask an ex-Zenefits prospect how they felt about that). Is that unclear or difficult to understand?

I think you read tone into my comment where there was none. Mine was a valid question; "in your opinion, iss Zenifits also seen poorly on a resume, given the fact that it is known that the CEO had to step down and they had to take measures to ban sex and drinking in the office, and this is amplified by the fact that they are a freaking HR company" - - I would think that if anyone is familiar with the Valley, that the…

Ah, gotcha. My apologies, not always easy to gauge intent!

Re: Uber Fires More Than 20 Employees in Harassment Probe

#207

The article doesn't discuss the seniority of the fired employees. It's very hard to distinguish between scapegoating and actually working to fix the problem without that information. The problem with Uber isn't that some employees engage in sexual harassment. The problem is that there's a culture where sexual harassment isn't taken seriously, is tolerated if the perpetrators are "high performing" in other respects, a…

Says the article: "The company didn’t name the employees who were let go. Some of the people fired were senior executives, according to the person."

Note that firing senior employees also doesn't imply that scapegoating isn't going on. If senior HR executives were perfectly in tune with the will of their bosses and then fell on their swords, there's no reason to suspect that the next crop of HR executives will not get the same cultural messages.

These sort of scandals persist because that 'proving' and then cementing the perception that the problem is solved to outsiders is very difficult.

Re: Uber Fires More Than 20 Employees in Harassment Probe

#208
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Um, it's not scapegoating if these people are harassing other employees. Scapegoating is when you hire underlings for projects that senior management was driving. No one forces you to harass another employee.

Scapegoating isn't the right word, but ThrustVectoring is right. In 12k employees there will be some dicks who sexually harass. You fire them. The problem at Uber isn't some line level eng or line level management sexually harassed someone; it's that HR and the VP Eng and the CEO all tolerated it. So unless someone whose name goes in SEC filings gets fired, they aren't taking this seriously.

This is ridiculous and definitely a false dichotomy.

I know HN has a hard-on for Uber at the moment, but comments like this are just pure pitchforking. To be clear, I don't condone nor intend to downplay sexual assault at workplaces, nor do I doubt Susan Fowler's account one iota.

However, there hasn't been any tangible evidence so far that the dismissal of Susan Fowler's sexual harassment stemmed from a board-level executive or Kalanick himself. All I remember vaguely was an article that was popular on HN that came out after Fowler's account, claiming that such a culture must stem directly from the uppermost echelons of management.

Again, to reiterate I don't doubt that Fowler's complaints were ignored by management. My contention is that everyone on HN won't satisfied with anything short of Kalanick's dismissal, when even Susan herself didn't claim that people on the same level as a board-level executive or Kalanick himself were aware of the situation. Middle management, yes. Kalanick-level, no.

Imagine if this happened at Walt Disney or Facebook. I don't think it would be reasonable to ask Zuckerberg to step down if a similar blog post came out about Facebook.

Re: Uber Fires More Than 20 Employees in Harassment Probe

#209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excuse me, sir or madam. You seem to have accidentally included sexual harassment in the category of "minor things." I presume that you are not such an awful human being that you actually believe this, so I would suggest choosing your words more carefully in the future so that people don't accidentally consider you terrible.

Google had many reported cases of sexual harrassment. Is having Google in your resume a bad thing too?

Google doesn't have a reputation of ignoring it to the point where they tacitly encourage it, like Uber does.

Re: Uber Fires More Than 20 Employees in Harassment Probe

#210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think part of the response you're getting is that "I don't care" is still vague. It could mean you don't find it interesting or relevant to your life. Or it could mean you don't think sexual harassment is morally wrong. Or something else. For example, I could say that I "don't care" about cholera deaths in Africa. I think it's a tragedy and hope the situation improves, but I'm not seeking out news about it or basin…

Yes, I did go back and clarify my comment a bit already Sexually harassment can definitely be morally wrong. But I'm not particularly outraged, mad, or upset by the sexual harassment scenario that happened at Uber, specifically. I don't think all sexual harassment should be lumped together, and doing so can lead to witch hunts.

There's no can about it. It always is wrong.
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