Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard • Hacker News Board

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#391

Post by fnordfnordfnord » Tue, Jun 06, 2017, 9:32 PM UTC

samstave wrote: post #282

hackermailman wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's called 'good time', which you earn as credits for early release. If you refuse to work you get written up and subtracted good time which means time added to expected release date. These disciplinary writeups affect parole potential as well. The kitchen is also considered one of the better jobs, a bad job would be Hoe Squad, which means a chain gang led out into 35C heat to work the fields while guys on horseback…

> The best skill you can have in most prisons is plumbing/home renovation knowledge, as it's common for one of the guards or warden to have you fix their houses in exchange for a restaurant meal on the way back to the prison. If you work well you will be contracted out F/T to the local town and the guards/warden pocket 90% of your salary. Is there any documented evidence of this happening? EDIT: https://www.theatlant…

I worked for TDCJ for a couple years, there were plenty of strange and sometimes salacious scandals. They often failed to make the news. That being said, no CO that I knew wanted inmates to know where they live. I only know of one case of a prison officer taking an inmate to their own home, and that was rumored to have been for sex. That doesn't mean a thing didn't happen though. CO's and other prison folks are very insular, and don't usually discuss things outside their tribe (well, not current affairs anyway).

There is limited on-unit housing for officers, and inmates are responsible for maintenance of those.

It is not unheard of for inmate work-crew supervisors (officers) to buy their workers a hamburger or take-out meal; this is usually during or after a shift of unusual duration or a situation that deserves a little recognition.

There are special cases. My grandfather, a county sheriff, was granted custody of a TDCJ inmate by the director. The inmate worked as a porter in the county jail, and occasionally was my babysitter for short periods of time. This was in the '70's.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#392

Post by soulbadguy » Tue, Jun 06, 2017, 9:38 PM UTC

enknamel wrote: post #382

bighi wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are also unlikely to break the law again if they have an ok time in jail (it's never going to be good) while learning productive skills and being reintegrated into society without prejudice. I wouldn't be glad someone had a bad time in their life.

Following that example, people would then break the law in a serious way every time they want to make a career change. Heck you get free training, room, and board! And a brand new set of skills and a job when you get out. Some people need to have a bad time in order to get them to behave. If you know without a doubt, that breaking the law will lead to having a very bad time, you are going to avoid breaking the law. I…

That sounds like a bit of straw man arg here. Jails shouldn't be a pleasant experiences doesn't meant implies that every experience in jail is okay or productive.It certainly doesn't justify us the tax payers subsiding slave wages...

> Some people need to have a bad time in order to get them to behave. If you know without a doubt, that breaking the law will lead to having a very bad time, you are going to avoid breaking the law. If you see it as a viable career move, wouldn't you be more likely than ever to break the law?

People probably need both, "proportionate" consequences to their action and mean and method to avoid the following the same path...

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#393

Post by 1024core » Tue, Jun 06, 2017, 9:42 PM UTC

linkregister wrote: post #351

1024core wrote: post #245

I think the Prison Industry should be judged by their recidivism rate. The Prison Guards union in Cali is very, very strong (they were behind the '3 strikes' law, ensuring a lifetime of "clients"). Their pay and benefits should be tied to the recidivism rate. Prisons should not be training grounds for future criminals, but they are today. Also: prisons should be shuffled periodically, mixing up the population. That'l…

Shuffling prisoners around breaks up the family ties they have on the outside; visitors have a harder time if they have to travel further. This increases the likelihood prisoners will offend again.

I meant, shuffle them around within the prison, so they're forced to interact more with other groups.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#394

Post by webXL » Tue, Jun 06, 2017, 9:48 PM UTC

Brockenstein wrote: post #280

webXL wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mostly agree that the record makes it harder to get a job and give up crime, but what about the deterrence factor? How many more would commit crimes knowing that it wouldn't have any impact on their ability to get a decent job right after serving some time? > A corporation is allowed to quietly syphon away billions of dollars from society using clever government lobbying and tax avoidance schemes Was it society's t…

>Was it society's to begin with? Sure it does, in the sense that wealth only exists as a construct of society. If Bill Gates is on a deserted island it doesn't matter if he has $1 or $60 billion, because without society his money has no value. One could make an argument that if society has made you very wealthy you owe a lot to society. Personally I don't disagree. Of course from there it gets messier because everyon…

> wealth only exists as a construct of society

And so do property rights and pretty much any other kind of right. To begin with, the construct was there, but the wealth wasn't, and definitely not Bill Gates' wealth, which did not exist prior to the creation of Microsoft and the aggregate consumer surplus and capital it created.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#395

Post by webXL » Tue, Jun 06, 2017, 9:58 PM UTC

JamesBarney wrote: post #272

webXL wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mostly agree that the record makes it harder to get a job and give up crime, but what about the deterrence factor? How many more would commit crimes knowing that it wouldn't have any impact on their ability to get a decent job right after serving some time? > A corporation is allowed to quietly syphon away billions of dollars from society using clever government lobbying and tax avoidance schemes Was it society's t…

> I mostly agree that the record makes it harder to get a job and give up crime, but what about the deterrence factor? How many more would commit crimes knowing that it wouldn't have any impact on their ability to get a decent job right after serving some time? It's very little deterrence.(look up hyperbolic discounting) The average person is pretty bad at weighing consequences 10 years from now. And criminals I imag…

Yes, that's the average person, but for those who aren't average like the upper middle class kid wanting to get into a decent school, get a good job and not bring life-long shame to his family, I think it's fairly strong.

Criminals definitely are worse at it, but I asked "how many more would commit crimes..." so that's not really relevant.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#396

Post by webXL » Tue, Jun 06, 2017, 10:03 PM UTC

anigbrowl wrote: post #361

webXL wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mostly agree that the record makes it harder to get a job and give up crime, but what about the deterrence factor? How many more would commit crimes knowing that it wouldn't have any impact on their ability to get a decent job right after serving some time? > A corporation is allowed to quietly syphon away billions of dollars from society using clever government lobbying and tax avoidance schemes Was it society's t…

Are you one of those people that thinks serving time is like a stay in a hotel with free food and cable TV?

No, but if it were, would you be more likely to break the law?

My point was about the total cost of the crime. e.g. if speeding tickets had no impact on insurance rates, don't you think fewer people would care about a $200 fine?

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#397

Post by orasis » Tue, Jun 06, 2017, 10:06 PM UTC

lowpro wrote: post #385

orasis wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is their argument silly? For many, God is an archetypical metaphor for a Daddy that must be feared and obeyed. Trump's election showed that a huge percentage of religious Americans have an authoritarian bent.

I've stated this before and I'll state it again: Trump won on his economics, not his social positions. The rust belt won him the election, where many people felt left behind and he promised to bring manufacturing back. It's hard to blame them based on Hillary's position.

Authoritarian tendencies polled strong among Trump supporters.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#398

Post by FullMtlAlcoholc » Tue, Jun 06, 2017, 10:11 PM UTC

FullMtlAlcoholc wrote: post #14

Think about that for a second...$75K/yr for abhorrent, yet improving conditions and you'll come to the correct conclusion that contractors are absolutely fleecing not only the p̶r̶i̶s̶o̶n̶s̶ tax payers, but the prisoners themselves. Half a lifetime ago, I had to spend a weekend in jail while visiting a friend in California (accused of theft by a drunk lady who couldn't find her credit cards and fingered me instead of…

As an addendum, the most disgusting thing I witnessed was the mandatory racial segregation that was enforced by the guards, ostensibly to make their jobs easier by cutting down on conflicts and physical fights. As a native of Detroit, I know all too well what racial segregation does to your view of the other, the out group(s).

I know it's just a smidge harder and takes a little more effort, but it is beyond crazy that we institutionally indoctrinate inmates into a race-based ideology. This engenders further wedges and future conflicts when inmates are released and trained to view other people with suspicion and mistrust....

Unless that's the point, serving as a useful distraction while the prestige is being performed

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#399

Post by 1812Overture » Tue, Jun 06, 2017, 10:15 PM UTC

deweyair wrote: post #260

usmeteora wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So where is the $75k cost to house them coming from? Clearly some contract is too expensive and something is not adding up. For that price, we should have Harvard classes taught at prisons, and maybe these inmates could have a shot at using their disparate lifestyle extremes to have new ways to employ/create new businesses that can improve society in areas where they see/experience/witness need for improvement, and p…

According to the article, a big increase in California's state prison system is for salary and medical of the guards. I'm not sure if they're union guards over there, but the prison guard union is pretty powerful in the federal system and many states. As far as other costs go, I'm not sure where they're getting up to 75k/year/offender. My experience has been mostly in the federal and midwest, where average cost of ho…

The prison guards union in California is insanely powerful. The guards probably make 3x as much as guards in some other states.

This will explain a lot: http://transparentcalifornia.com/salaries/search/?q=correcti...

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#400

Post by crusso » Tue, Jun 06, 2017, 10:22 PM UTC

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #290

crusso wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't like the over-use of the word "slavery". Slavery was the capturing of innocent human beings and then forcing them and their progeny to do labor in perpetuity. It was utterly dehumanizing and undeserved treatment. We do a disservice to the meaning of slavery in the USA by calling everything slavery: taxation, prison work, marriage, etc.

Innocent ? All human beings are morally innocent, and with enough laws, anyone can be made a criminal. Enforced prison labor is slavery, no ifs ands or buts. It must be stopped. This is an Americanized version of Stalin's gulags.

All human beings are morally innocent

If you're a member of a society and you break the law, then you aren't innocent. If the laws of the society are unjust then that's a different argument entirely. Africans who were not even members of the American colonies were kidnapped and forced into labor. They were completely innocent but regarded as sub-human and not deserving of rights. To equate their plight with the plight of those who knowingly break the law in the USA and are forced to do labor is to demean the situation of Africans who were enslaved. IMO, that's not the argument we want to make regarding US prison problems.

Enforced prison labor is slavery

Then I guess we can't fine people either. People perform labor to make money. Fining people forces them to provide labor.

Enforced prison labor is just a fine to be paid through labor. Like any penalty, it can be punitive or it can be recompensatory. It is not "slavery".