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Everything's Blub All Over Again

news.ycombinator.com

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Re: Everything's Blub All Over Again

#21

Post by xlnt »

raganwald wrote: post #20
xlnt wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if the other person is just being an idiot? What if you think he's not capable of understanding? What if he's a child? What if you think he's trolling? Is better argument still the way to go?

I am a parent, so I can answer your question with respect to children: raising your voice does not do anything except escalate the discussion into an emotional melt-down. With respect to people you deem to be idiots and trolls, we have known the answer for a very long time. One of the more amusing bits of advice about the matter came from Mark twain: "Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the dif…

I agree that yelling at children doesn't help. But I'm wondering if you would debate with a child, or try to persuade him with good ideas, or would use some other sort of approach that isn't yelling or persuading?

Re: Everything's Blub All Over Again

#22

Post by raganwald »

xlnt wrote: post #21
raganwald wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a parent, so I can answer your question with respect to children: raising your voice does not do anything except escalate the discussion into an emotional melt-down. With respect to people you deem to be idiots and trolls, we have known the answer for a very long time. One of the more amusing bits of advice about the matter came from Mark twain: "Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the dif…

I agree that yelling at children doesn't help. But I'm wondering if you would debate with a child, or try to persuade him with good ideas, or would use some other sort of approach that isn't yelling or persuading?

Interesting question, but let's take it somewhere else: Are we describing programmers as children, idiots, and/or trolls? I hope not...

Re: Everything's Blub All Over Again

#23

Post by xlnt »

raganwald wrote: post #22
xlnt wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that yelling at children doesn't help. But I'm wondering if you would debate with a child, or try to persuade him with good ideas, or would use some other sort of approach that isn't yelling or persuading?

Interesting question, but let's take it somewhere else: Are we describing programmers as children, idiots, and/or trolls? I hope not...

I didn't mean to be, although certainly a programmer could be any of those.

Re: Everything's Blub All Over Again

#24

Post by xlnt »

daniel-cussen wrote: post #4

I've wondered if one could arrive at a good decision using no evidence or facts , but only based on how the different sides debate the issue. The idea is you could determine which party is right based solely on how they say things, rather than how strong the evidence is. You look at how different parties debate. You then compare their styles or types of arguments with debates from the past that have since been settle…

A pretty good test is to ask each side to summarize the other side's position in a way the other side would endorse.

If one side succeeds, and the other fails, that reveals who understands both positions, and who doesn't.

Of course they can still make excuses, such as saying that they don't understand the other guy's position because he didn't explain it clearly. And they can say they asked questions about it to try to understand, but he still didn't answer well. That could even be true. But it usually isn't.

Re: Everything's Blub All Over Again

#25

Post by gruseom »

xlnt wrote: post #16
pg wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The situation with reddit is a unique one. I think I'm the only person who both writes a lot and started a news site. Not surprisingly, people who like what I write tended to switch to that news site. The switch was particularly extreme in the case of reddit, because News.YC is in a sense an offshoot of reddit: most people who switched from another site to this one came from there. The result is that practically anyo…

Of course there is something you could do. People aren't static. So what if the people who like you came here, and the ones who didn't stayed there? If you say good enough things everyone will like you and it will be a mute point. Sure it's harder because there is some initial negative reaction to overcome from the reddit group. And it may not be the best use of your time. But it could be done with sufficient skill.

If you say good enough things everyone will like you

Oh my goodness. You're not serious, are you? This is a strategy for obtaining misery and contempt... and deserving it!

Re: Everything's Blub All Over Again

#26

Post by xlnt »

gruseom wrote: post #25
xlnt wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course there is something you could do. People aren't static. So what if the people who like you came here, and the ones who didn't stayed there? If you say good enough things everyone will like you and it will be a mute point. Sure it's harder because there is some initial negative reaction to overcome from the reddit group. And it may not be the best use of your time. But it could be done with sufficient skill.

If you say good enough things everyone will like you Oh my goodness. You're not serious, are you? This is a strategy for obtaining misery and contempt... and deserving it!

I am serious. What do you think could possibly prevent this from working (other than insufficient skill to say good enough things)?

You say it's a strategy for obtaining misery and contempt. But it's not a strategy. It's just a fact. The strategy of attempting to get everyone to like you in this way is something different. That's hard and I didn't recommend it, I only said it is possible.

Re: Everything's Blub All Over Again

#27

Post by pchristensen »

xlnt wrote: post #16
pg wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The situation with reddit is a unique one. I think I'm the only person who both writes a lot and started a news site. Not surprisingly, people who like what I write tended to switch to that news site. The switch was particularly extreme in the case of reddit, because News.YC is in a sense an offshoot of reddit: most people who switched from another site to this one came from there. The result is that practically anyo…

Of course there is something you could do. People aren't static. So what if the people who like you came here, and the ones who didn't stayed there? If you say good enough things everyone will like you and it will be a mute point. Sure it's harder because there is some initial negative reaction to overcome from the reddit group. And it may not be the best use of your time. But it could be done with sufficient skill.

This assumes that there are no two people in a community with opposite viewpoints. If someone has the opposite viewpoint of you and you start writing stuff to please them, then they'll just hate you for pandering. Plus, the people that agreed with you will call you a traitor and a sellout. Fun times!

Re: Everything's Blub All Over Again

#28

Post by xlnt »

pchristensen wrote: post #27
xlnt wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course there is something you could do. People aren't static. So what if the people who like you came here, and the ones who didn't stayed there? If you say good enough things everyone will like you and it will be a mute point. Sure it's harder because there is some initial negative reaction to overcome from the reddit group. And it may not be the best use of your time. But it could be done with sufficient skill.

This assumes that there are no two people in a community with opposite viewpoints. If someone has the opposite viewpoint of you and you start writing stuff to please them, then they'll just hate you for pandering. Plus, the people that agreed with you will call you a traitor and a sellout. Fun times!

My premise is more that there is a truth of the matter. Even if people start with opposite view points, that won't last when sufficiently good/true things are said (plus enough help seeing why this new view is better, and how to change, and how that will improve their life, etc).

Re: Everything's Blub All Over Again

#29

Post by gruseom »

xlnt wrote: post #26
gruseom wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you say good enough things everyone will like you Oh my goodness. You're not serious, are you? This is a strategy for obtaining misery and contempt... and deserving it!

I am serious. What do you think could possibly prevent this from working (other than insufficient skill to say good enough things)? You say it's a strategy for obtaining misery and contempt. But it's not a strategy. It's just a fact. The strategy of attempting to get everyone to like you in this way is something different. That's hard and I didn't recommend it, I only said it is possible.

What do you think could possibly prevent this from working

The people you're trying to please have contradictory opinions and desires. What you say to please Group A will strike Group B as an outrage! And if you try to remove everything potentially offensive to anybody, well, that will turn you into such a pandering namby-pamb that the whole world will find you annoying and want to poke you with a stick.

Edit: Just to be clear, I'm not saying one should go around offending people. I'm saying that trying to get everyone to like you is hopeless and that effort put into doing so will both warp and weaken you.

Other edit: just noticed that pchristensen already made the same point.

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