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Uber Fires More Than 20 Employees in Harassment Probe

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Re: Uber Fires More Than 20 Employees in Harassment Probe

#141

Post by kbenson »

moomin wrote: post #126
kbenson wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The article doesn't discuss the seniority of the fired employees. It's very hard to distinguish between scapegoating and actually working to fix the problem without that information. It's probably important to consider that even with those numbers, you wouldn't know whether it was scapegoating or not. All they would do would be to allow you to make assumptions, which is more about your preconceptions of what you th…

Sooner or later you've gotta decide who to believe. The person with nothing to gain by reporting it, or the company with everything to gain by denying it. Besides, it isn't hearsay, the allegations have been made by some of the victims. Hearsay is something else.

I didn't say it was hearsay. I didn't say I didn't believe the people reporting the problems. I'm just noting that there's a lot of room between "some employees were harassing others, largely unknown to most management" and "there's a pervasive culture of harassment that goes all the way to the top, and includes much of management".

And I can fully believe everyone reporting problems believes they are right while withholding judgment as to whether their interpretation of their situations, which were generally highly emotional and formed during extreme stress, is entirely consistent with reality once the other side has a chance to state their case. We should always get both sides. Humans aren't very good at representing stressful situations with other humans objectively.

Re: Uber Fires More Than 20 Employees in Harassment Probe

#142

Post by randyrand »

wakkaflokka wrote: post #139
randyrand wrote: post #57

I just want to say, for every person in disgust of Uber and their sexual harassment scenario, there are many more of us that just don't care. Of course, most that don't care don't comment. So the comment section is not a good view of public opinion. Just the vocal minority.

The natural follow-up question I have, is why don't you care?

That's a great question! I can't speak for everyone, but personally I don't think asking another adult if they want to have sex with you is morally wrong, even in the workplace.

I think Americans are way too sensitive when it comes to sexuality. They repress it way too much.

For reference, here is the accusation from the blog post:

On my first official day rotating on the team, my new manager sent me a string of messages over company chat. He was in an open relationship, he said, and his girlfriend was having an easy time finding new partners but he wasn't. He was trying to stay out of trouble at work, he said, but he couldn't help getting in trouble, because he was looking for women to have sex with. It was clear that he was trying to get me to have sex with him, and it was so clearly out of line that I immediately took screenshots of these chat messages and reported him to HR.

Re: Uber Fires More Than 20 Employees in Harassment Probe

#143

Post by throwaway2048 »

korzun wrote: post #131
sulam wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope. I don't need to be to have a conversation. Of course, you could argue the person I was speaking with shouldn't have shared the information with me, but that's their concern.

> I have independently verified > Nope. I don't need to be to have a conversation You can't publicly claim that you independently verified something and provide absolutely no information on that verification. You are not a Pope. You started the conversation and chose to share that piece information.

He is free to share it, and you are free to disbelieve it, this isn't a court of law.

Re: Uber Fires More Than 20 Employees in Harassment Probe

#144

Post by macspoofing »

vkou wrote: post #86
pyronik wrote: post #76

Are we really at the point in society if someone asks a coworker out on a date its sexual harassment? I imagine the answer to that is whether she said yes or not. Rule #1 ... be attractive.

I'm surprised that we are still at a point in society where people legitimately don't understand the difference between workplace-appropriate behaviour, and harassment. But, to spell the difference out: Once is asking. Twice is harassment. Propositioning a report is a fireable offense. There's more to it, but those are the basics.

>I'm surprised that we are still at a point in society where people legitimately don't understand the difference between workplace-appropriate behaviour, and harassment.

I'm not, especially when it comes to tech which is full of young 20-somethings, some of whom may be brilliant when it comes to programming and mathematics, but dumb when it comes to social cues and social interactions. A lot of this stuff gets figured out with experience.

>Once is asking. Twice is harassment. Propositioning a report is a fireable offense.

Sure. Sounds like a good general rule that may be too permissive in some cases, and too punishing in other.

Re: Uber Fires More Than 20 Employees in Harassment Probe

#145

Post by ThrustVectoring »

5ilv3r wrote: post #75
timbuckley wrote: post #48

I guess other companies should be wary of persons who leave Uber in the past few weeks or so.

Nah, profiling is no good. Probably a better idea to work on a solid recruiting process that can shake out practitioners of bad behavior from the candidate pool. Then you can handle it and more.

I don't really like the "bad actor" model of things. You don't just want people who aren't going to engage in that sort of behavior regardless of context. You also want people who are professional enough to figure out what's allowed and work within that box.

Re: Uber Fires More Than 20 Employees in Harassment Probe

#146

Post by watwut »

macspoofing wrote: post #124
5ilv3r wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> inexperienced 20-something Well, if he learns and grows from the experience, maybe he'll end up better than the ones that didn't fuck up. --Former stupid as fucking fuck 20 year old

That's my point exactly. Tech companies are full of dumb 20-somethings who will make dumb 20-something mistakes. This may result in them getting reprimanded or terminated which will serve as a learning experience. But OP went further. She/He characterized them as "toxic" and potentially inflicting massive damage on the new company's culture with the implications that no company should hire them. Disgusting.

Reality check: overwhelming majority of 20 years old dudes don't harass women. They are not as dumb as you imply and they know what harassment is.

If you would be right, then radical feminists are right in that college students need special classes to tell them what is rape, what is harassment and what is proposal. Majority of non radical people opposed that on the grounds that it is insulting and dudes know.

If at the age of 20 you are so confused, then you are add toxic as dude who does not know difference between boxing match and pub fight. And as rare.

Re: Uber Fires More Than 20 Employees in Harassment Probe

#147

Post by stale2002 »

macspoofing wrote: post #132
mavelikara wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You stated: I haven't seen any evidence for it. In the very next sentence you offer one such evidence, and then go on to discredit it with you can't just extrapolate .

>In the very next sentence you offer one such evidence, and then go on to discredit it with you can't just extrapolate. Right. Because in the first case we're talking about a systemic problem applying to a global company of 12,000 possibly spanning all levels of management as well as its polices and mandates. In the second case we're talking about a person's singular experience - which I've never disputed. The former…

Were you really not aware of Uber's work culture issues?

Uber's problems with work culture and hostility to women has been an open secret for years. I remember hearing rumors about it since 2014 at least.

None of the recent allegations are surprising to anybody at all who has been aware of what it is like to work there.

Re: Uber Fires More Than 20 Employees in Harassment Probe

#148

Post by [deleted] »

_dark_matter_ wrote: post #35
macspoofing wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The problem is that there's a culture where sexual harassment isn't taken seriously Is there? I've seen people claim this but I haven't seen any evidence for it. I know Susan Fowler's account is used frequently as basis for that statement and though I don't doubt her sincerity and truthfulness, you can't just extrapolate her experience to the entire (global) company.

I mean... a quick google search will get you there. [0] Travis calls Uber "Boob-er" because it helps him (and other execs) pick up women [1] Sexual Harassment + Heavy drug use at the global all-hands [2] Company group, including CEO, visits escort bar in Seoul [3] More "survivor" stories ------------------------------------------------- [0] http://www.gq.com/story/uber-cab-confessions?currentPage=1 [1] https://www.ny…

[deleted]

Re: Uber Fires More Than 20 Employees in Harassment Probe

#149

Post by watwut »

macspoofing wrote: post #144
vkou wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm surprised that we are still at a point in society where people legitimately don't understand the difference between workplace-appropriate behaviour, and harassment. But, to spell the difference out: Once is asking. Twice is harassment. Propositioning a report is a fireable offense. There's more to it, but those are the basics.

>I'm surprised that we are still at a point in society where people legitimately don't understand the difference between workplace-appropriate behaviour, and harassment. I'm not, especially when it comes to tech which is full of young 20-somethings, some of whom may be brilliant when it comes to programming and mathematics, but dumb when it comes to social cues and social interactions. A lot of this stuff gets figure…

I work in tech. While there are problems, dudes are way better at social skills then you imply. Thay includes dudes with asperger.

Re: Uber Fires More Than 20 Employees in Harassment Probe

#150

Post by Tenhundfeld »

randyrand wrote: post #138
Tenhundfeld wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think part of the response you're getting is that "I don't care" is still vague. It could mean you don't find it interesting or relevant to your life. Or it could mean you don't think sexual harassment is morally wrong. Or something else. For example, I could say that I "don't care" about cholera deaths in Africa. I think it's a tragedy and hope the situation improves, but I'm not seeking out news about it or basin…

Yes, I did go back and clarify my comment a bit already Sexually harassment can definitely be morally wrong. But I'm not particularly outraged, mad, or upset by the sexual harassment scenario that happened at Uber, specifically. I don't think all sexual harassment should be lumped together, and doing so can lead to witch hunts.

Gotcha. I don't agree 100% with this clarified position (I think), but it seems like a rational position that we could debate. Not here of course. :) But you know, over drinks or whatevs.

Anyway, the point is that it's a much less outlandish statement than how I interpreted your original comment.

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