Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard • Hacker News Board

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#321

Post by Jemmeh » Tue, Jun 06, 2017, 5:23 PM UTC

yjgyhj wrote: post #162

cubano wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the risk of being boorish about the subject... I was recently released from Las Vegas County Jail (CCDC) where all sentenced inmates, myself included, are forced , by state law, to "work" in some manner in the jail. In this case, work consisted of 11-hour shifts, 6 days a week, of ultra back-breaking kitchen work. We were not even allowed to have water cups anywhere outside the break room. They actually yelled fas…

That is indeed totally crazy. I wish I had some way to verify your story, as I as a reader can't know who sits behind the keyboard on the other side.

USA has the highest rate of incarceration in the world, you can find many similar stories on Google.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#322

Post by drdeca » Tue, Jun 06, 2017, 5:32 PM UTC

shrimp_emoji wrote: post #302

devmunchies wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any child abusers or rapists arguably deserve it, but not to the benefit of a private company. And they shouldn't be required to work imo.

Adult abusers or rapists deserve better though.

I don't think the comment meant "child [abusers or rapists]" but rather "[child abusers] or rapists". i.e. those who either are [abusers of children], or are [any kind of rapist].

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#323

Post by FullMtlAlcoholc » Tue, Jun 06, 2017, 5:37 PM UTC

mowenz wrote: post #136

coldtea wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Remember when a small team built a better healthcare.gov? Why not open up well-regulated competitive markets for these kinds of problems? Because the solution ("making prison a market") is what caused the problem in the first place. And because some things, like treating people in prison humanely, you don't want to live to the lowest bidder (though even that would be an improvement over the worse than third world s…

There is actually no competitive market here. I agree there is a lot of danger in profiting from incarceration. However, it would be good if someone figured out how to solve the problem and a profit motive is a reliable way to do it. In other words, the profit motive would have to work towards eliminatin the problem--that's my point about a properly regulated market. Maybe some other users here are right and I am nai…

> Maybe some other users here are right and I am naive in thinking people will create fair and just rules that others wont try to cheat.

There's just not a lot to gain and a lot that can go wrong. It's high risk, minimal rewards. Making prisons more rehabilitative isn't difficult or some unsolved problem.

People in this country just have an appetite for righteous vengeance and ensuring that criminals receive their due suffering.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#324

Post by DanBC » Tue, Jun 06, 2017, 5:37 PM UTC

tomjen3 wrote: post #300

hansthehorse wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If somebody is so much of a non threat to society he can be housed in a voluntary prison camp he shouldn't be in prison at all. Establish a real community service program, not one that you can pay your way out of, and sentence them to service hours. There are dozens of ways to allow a petty law breaker to contribute.

Lets say I run some scam against tax-preparation companies and get away with millions over some months but are caught red-handed. Clearly I am not dangerous to society, but at the same time I can never really work of the money. Would you still put me in the community program? Or take the other case, I am high on drugs and crash a car with several of my kids in it. At the same time I clearly didn't mean to harm them -…

> Or take the other case, I am high on drugs and crash a car with several of my kids in it. At the same time I clearly didn't mean to harm them - you wouldn't have problem with me having the kids if I wasn't on drugs. Assume further (because this is often the case) that I skip out of rehab. What would you do with me?

Everything has to be done in the children's best interest. In this situation hypothetical_tomjen3 has put their children in danger.

This means any approach covers several points:

1) Firm reminder that continued use of drugs while you're supposed to be in control of the children means the state is left with little option but to remove the children from you

2) Removal of the children can be avoided if you comply with rehab

3) Provide good quality, evidence based rehab

4) Provide access to the children (with supervision if needed)

5) Remove driving licence for a year as a punishment. The driving licence can only be regained after successfully completing rehab with clean tests for some time.

This particular example you've given is a public health problem, not a criminal justice problem.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#325

Post by conanbatt » Tue, Jun 06, 2017, 5:37 PM UTC

danielam wrote: post #219

throwawayjava wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's certainly involuntary servitude, and I'm not sure there's a meaningful difference between that and slavery. Also, the word "except" is our key hint here.

It is involuntary (all punishment is!), but it's not servitude in the same sense that slavery is. If you want to call that "slavery" nonetheless, that's up to you, but you'd be equivocating. There is a difference between slavery as an institution of unjust forced submission and "slavery" as just punishment for crimes committed.

> There is a difference between slavery as an institution of unjust forced submission and "slavery" as just punishment for crimes committed.

The difference is solely the standing law. During the nazi regimen (godwin's law, but really) many of the appalling things they did were legal. It was legal to execute, and it was legal to do forced labor.

Slavery was always legal, that was the problem all along! A slave could not physically escape without the fear of unpunished retribution.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#326

Post by sedachv » Tue, Jun 06, 2017, 5:38 PM UTC

TP4Cornholio wrote: post #307

cubano wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the risk of being boorish about the subject... I was recently released from Las Vegas County Jail (CCDC) where all sentenced inmates, myself included, are forced , by state law, to "work" in some manner in the jail. In this case, work consisted of 11-hour shifts, 6 days a week, of ultra back-breaking kitchen work. We were not even allowed to have water cups anywhere outside the break room. They actually yelled fas…

Hard to believe it costs so much if they're getting that much free labor. I would think they'd at least break even.

Private prison contracts are structured to basically provide taxpayer-subsidized slave labor.[1][2] It is just another Reagan-Thatcher era privatization scam.

[1] http://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2013/09/private-pri...

[2] http://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2015/06/private-pri...

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#327

Post by ferentchak » Tue, Jun 06, 2017, 5:40 PM UTC

pixl97 wrote: post #318

77pt77 wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You get no gain time for time spent in jail for your prison sentence, so its often called dead time or day-for-day or something. Excuse me?! So if I wait for 1 year in jail waiting to go to court and later I'm sentenced to 1 year in prison, I get to serve another year?!

No, that poster doesn't know what they are talking about. That said, sentencing is very discretionary so a judge will commonly balance out your total sentence with how much time you've already spent in jail.

Man can we be a little nicer here. He said "no gain time for time spent in jail" I am not familiar with the term "gain time" but as he uses it above seems to me additional time taken off of your sentence for playing nice. Working dancing to entertain the warden etc.

I took that to mean that while you are in jail you burn down one to one days which is not as fast as the bonus or "gain time" you would get in actual prison.

He may or may not be correct and my guess is it depends on where you at since state and local laws will be applied but... As for knowing what he is talking about my guess is many prisoners are experts in the system of trying to reduce their stays in prison.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#328

Post by drdeca » Tue, Jun 06, 2017, 5:41 PM UTC

danharaj wrote: post #292

vanjoe wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As long as you allow that society has the right to force people to be locked up without their consent because they broke a law, I don't think it's a stretch to say that society has the right to force people to do work.

I don't see why that follows, considering they're two different things. In any case I do think prisons themselves are one of the blights of modern society.

While I'm not certain that society doesn't have the authority to force people to work (though, if it is ambiguous/uncertain, I would advise "don't", and I am not confident it does, so I advise "don't"), but I do agree that it doesn't really seem to follow, at least not without assuming some other premises.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#329

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jun 06, 2017, 5:43 PM UTC

gabemart wrote: post #74

This is a cheap, sensational headline and an article that lacks depth and analysis. At the end of 2006, there were ~160,000 people in prison "institutions" in the state of California[1]. The design capacity of those institutions was ~79,000 people[1], so the occupation was ~204% of the design capacity. At the end of 2016, there were ~114k people in prison institutions[2], which was ~134% of the design capacity. Obvio…

[deleted]

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#330

Post by ironarm » Tue, Jun 06, 2017, 5:44 PM UTC

FullMtlAlcoholc wrote: post #14

Think about that for a second...$75K/yr for abhorrent, yet improving conditions and you'll come to the correct conclusion that contractors are absolutely fleecing not only the p̶r̶i̶s̶o̶n̶s̶ tax payers, but the prisoners themselves. Half a lifetime ago, I had to spend a weekend in jail while visiting a friend in California (accused of theft by a drunk lady who couldn't find her credit cards and fingered me instead of…

Just a heads up. The Bob Barker company is not run by the former Price is Right host. AFAIK he's never had anything to do with the company. Just the same name.

Oddly, this company which has been in existence for 20+ years fleecing correctional facilities still doesn't have a wikipedia page, and little is known about them. Would somebody please fix this?