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Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

latimes.com

251–260 of 427 posts

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#251

Until they murder someone you care about. I sincerely believe there is a reason that people behind bars are behind bars. I don't believe the feel-good narratives about noble prisoners who just had a bad turn in life, especially these days where people with long rap sheets are routinely set free to re-offend at will. I've seen them up close--there's not 1 in 20 that I feel sorry for. Every story is one of a downward s…

stick them all in the same village, inspect each house daily and only let approved people in and out of the village. there are also a lot of ghost towns that need filling.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#252

This is what privatization leads to. Hand off a government function to a profit-seeking organization, well, it's gonna seek profits; the taxpayer winds up paying for the thing and also for someone else to make their profits off the thing. Seriously has there ever been a situation where privatizing an industry led to actually reduced costs, and didn't lead to reduced quality of output? Even if you accept the (IMHO dub…

This is an extremely simplistic way to look at things. Private organizations do some things much better than public, and vice versa. More often than not it depends on the question you're asking... And there's a lot of contextualization needed in the answer. How's your electrical infrastructure, or your water infrastructure doing? They're supplied by private industry. How's your religious institution, your school bus,…

> Private organizations do some things much better than public, and vice versa.

That is certainly a true statement, and I'm of course by no means suggesting that privately-supplied functions such as "day care" or "religious institutions" should be government-run.

I'm reacting primarily to the current American administration's de facto stance of "small government good, big government bad," which I feel is just as simplistic as the straw-man version of my question you constructed. Privatization efforts have been proposed (or have long since been carried out -- this tendency long predates Trump) for the prison system, the education system, air traffic control, even the military itself through use of mercenary companies like whatever Blackwater's name is now. (There's certainly room for reasoned disagreement about which functions a government ought to serve compared to private industry, but surely "military and jails" belong under the government umbrella?)

In every case I'm aware of, the justification has been that it will reduce costs due to increased efficiency, yet the end results have been increased costs and reduced quality of service. Maybe Americans are just bad at privatization, but that was a genuine question: has there been a case where privatizing a function traditionally served by the government has improved it? The case under discussion here, the american prison system, certainly hasn't.

My main point was this:

> Even if you accept the premise that private industry is necessarily going to be more efficient than government-run industry, the efficiency gain has to be greater than the profit-taking for it to be a worthwhile tradeoff for the taxpayer.

...which seems inarguable, yet is rarely if ever addressed by proponents of privatization.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#253

Until they murder someone you care about. I sincerely believe there is a reason that people behind bars are behind bars. I don't believe the feel-good narratives about noble prisoners who just had a bad turn in life, especially these days where people with long rap sheets are routinely set free to re-offend at will. I've seen them up close--there's not 1 in 20 that I feel sorry for. Every story is one of a downward s…

Policies towards crime in America are pretty strict and have been so for a long time, yet the problem continues to fester and the homicide rate itself is still much higher than in most Western nations with comparatively less severe punishments for criminals.

It's not just about the feel-good narrative but the actual idea of whether rehabilitation is more effective at getting the low crime rate you want than focusing on protestant-type punishment, even if it seems that a lot of unpleasant people are then treated better than the public would want them to be.

As for terrorism, the principle is similar. The "tough guy" response can actually be security theater: short of policing every interaction, it's difficult to prevent every attack, although of course more can be done. If you start changing everything about the way your country functions after one attack, it also incentivizes more attacks. It doesn't help that the aggressive and nationalistic reaction is exactly what ISIS is hoping to trigger in the West. Not to mention the absurdity of having a strong policy towards terrorism while at the same time giving close support to nations such as SA.

To summarize, there's a lot more to consider other than people simply being too nice to survive.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#254
post #91

Think about that for a second...$75K/yr for abhorrent, yet improving conditions and you'll come to the correct conclusion that contractors are absolutely fleecing not only the p̶r̶i̶s̶o̶n̶s̶ tax payers, but the prisoners themselves. Half a lifetime ago, I had to spend a weekend in jail while visiting a friend in California (accused of theft by a drunk lady who couldn't find her credit cards and fingered me instead of…

You are blaming unethical people for profiting from a flawed system. I would say fixing the system is a easier problem, then fixing humanity as a whole. For instance, what are the consequences for the mid level government bureaucrat who accepted the 7$ a tube toothpaste contract? It is obviously a flagrant violation with a paper trail. Even if it is revealed he gets a fully paid vacation every year from the bidding c…

> You are blaming unethical people for profiting from a flawed system. I would say fixing the system is a easier problem, then fixing humanity as a whole.

Find me a system that isnt flawed...

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction." Legally speaking seems like in the US that prisoners are slaves. SOURCE: https://www.loc.gov/rr/program/bib/ourdocs/13thamendment.htm...

If hard labor is the punishment, and the punishment is commensurate with the crime, then no, it's not slavery. Slavery obtains under different conditions.

If the boots taste like candy, you're really licking a lollipop!

If locking people up and forcing them to work is making people billions, it's slavery. Period.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction." Legally speaking seems like in the US that prisoners are slaves. SOURCE: https://www.loc.gov/rr/program/bib/ourdocs/13thamendment.htm...

If hard labor is the punishment, and the punishment is commensurate with the crime, then no, it's not slavery. Slavery obtains under different conditions.

Profiting from uncompensated coerced labor walks and talks like the slavery duck. The 13th amendment talked about it because it was and still is slavery.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#257
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being convicted to slavery is justice now?

I don't like the over-use of the word "slavery". Slavery was the capturing of innocent human beings and then forcing them and their progeny to do labor in perpetuity. It was utterly dehumanizing and undeserved treatment. We do a disservice to the meaning of slavery in the USA by calling everything slavery: taxation, prison work, marriage, etc.

> innocent human beings

Why the word "innocent"? Its irrelevant if they committed a crime or not, or if they were convicted of a crime or not.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#258
post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that some people are irredeemable seems to be rather against the current of most Christian thought.

Christians overwhelmingly elected Trump. Perhaps Christian != a follower of the teachings of Christ.

Well then why are we talking about "religious doctrine"?

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that some people are irredeemable seems to be rather against the current of most Christian thought.

America's brand of Christianity doesn't care about Jesus. It cares about the wrath of the Old Testament and the rules of Paul.

America does not have one single brand of Christianity but countless sects with views and member demographics that differ significantly.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'The prison contracts everything from security to mopping.' In the vast majority of American prisons, the prisoners do the mopping. Security is still done by guards, but nearly every other job in the prison is done by the offenders. It's much cheaper this way - for state prisons average starting wage for non-industrial jobs is $0.25/hr. Industrial jobs don't start much higher, but they tend to have a higher cap aroun…

So where is the $75k cost to house them coming from? Clearly some contract is too expensive and something is not adding up. For that price, we should have Harvard classes taught at prisons, and maybe these inmates could have a shot at using their disparate lifestyle extremes to have new ways to employ/create new businesses that can improve society in areas where they see/experience/witness need for improvement, and p…

According to the article, a big increase in California's state prison system is for salary and medical of the guards. I'm not sure if they're union guards over there, but the prison guard union is pretty powerful in the federal system and many states.

As far as other costs go, I'm not sure where they're getting up to 75k/year/offender. My experience has been mostly in the federal and midwest, where average cost of housing an offender for a year in a low/medium security facility is around 20k-25k.

It would be interesting to look at their books!

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