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Many Colleges Fail to Improve Critical-Thinking Skills

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Re: Many Colleges Fail to Improve Critical-Thinking Skills

#81

Post by novalis78 »

abtinf wrote: post #48
Animats wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Paying for the party" is amusing. "Pledged: The Secret Life of Sororities" covers much the same material. The importance of drinking didn't happen by accident. The alcohol industry promoted it heavily.[1] Two out of five students in the colleges studied are now binge drinkers. I got critical thinking early because I was brought up by a lawyer. There were always briefs around the house, and I could read the briefs fo…

I'd never thought of legal briefings as good educational material, but I think you are right that doing so would help a person understand how to even approach an issue. Maybe even following up with the court's decision and (in the case of SCOTUS) dissents. On a philosophical level, Leonard Peikoff talks about this issue in his essay "The American School: Why Johnny Can't Think" [1]: "An education that trains a child’…

Hence old style classical education on Latin orators (Cicero, Cato etc) comes to mind and the amazing rationality that was imbibed in founding generations and up makes a lot of sense (as a cursory reading of Google Books will impress you with). To bad it's exactly these authors that had to be memorized very often as well are the last thing on the list of our 'modern educational system' - and just for the record I am also someone who believes not enough STEM is taught as well

Re: Many Colleges Fail to Improve Critical-Thinking Skills

#82

Post by ReinholdNiebuhr »

I've always wondered if going to college immediately at 18 is the wisest of choices. Personally I worked numerous jobs until 30 and earned my bachelors in history and political economy. I always appreciated each class and all that was offered while everyone else around me being way younger were recovering from the night of partying before. I know how I was at 18, I was tired of high school and ready to just explore the world. I did and when I went to college it was on my own dime and when it felt right.

Granted what was learned would be considered soft, nothing that could really show in the coding world.. and I get it.. you go to get technical skills to get a good job. To me though if this is what college is about then perhaps we should aim for more of an apprenticeship type set up like Germany. Liberal arts colleges can exist still, but it'll be to teach for a more mature crowd able to pay out of pocket and not being something made almost as a requirement. That's not to say you need a college degree to succeed.. I was already set up in my career at the time without any college experience. Considering now I'm trying to start an aquaculture company I probably should of majored in marine biology... then again.. I really didn't become passionate about over-fishing until I took a political course on it. Shrug.

Re: Many Colleges Fail to Improve Critical-Thinking Skills

#83

Post by andrewflnr »

wutbrodo wrote: post #70
jseliger wrote: post #2

I've taught college. This study is wildly unsurprising. I've written about this in various places (e.g. https://jakeseliger.com/2014/04/27/paying-for-the-party-eliz... ), but most colleges have evolved majors and paths that are designed to move students through the system, collect their tuition money, and graduate them. In re-reading the previous sentence, I think I sound opposed to this. I am a little bit, maybe, bu…

For what it's worth, the fact that I'm the only one in my circles who didn't figure this out put me in a wayyyyy better position than most. If you think that college is for learning instead of just being present until they give you a degree, you spend a hell of a lot more time and effort figuring out what you want to study, where you'll learn the most, etc etc. All of my friends who treated college as "probably the b…

I think about it pretty much backwards from that. To me the value of realizing it's a diploma mill is that you know you need to do most of your real learning independent of class. Taking the the classes and tests seriously is a distraction from that. You might be more right than me, though, looking at the attitudes of other students.

Re: Many Colleges Fail to Improve Critical-Thinking Skills

#84

Post by icelancer »

rockinghigh wrote: post #31
shirro wrote: post #20

If people had critical thinking skills they wouldn't be taking out outrageous loans to pay for often worthless degrees.

Good luck finding a job without a college degree.

Could always work for me. I tell applicants to leave off their education credentials and to show me their previous work history and projects.

Hired a dropout who ended up producing sports science research that probably could have netted him a Ph.D.

We're out there hiring.

Re: Many Colleges Fail to Improve Critical-Thinking Skills

#85

Post by jshmrsn »

mowenz wrote: post #78
jstewartmobile wrote: post #52

Not the biggest fan of higher ed, but why put this on the colleges? Why not the high schools? Eighteen was practically middle-aged in the 19th century. We just keep dropping that bar and infantilizing people so much that WSJ will be writing this about PhD programs in a few more years.

>Eighteen was middle-aged That is possibly misleading. By year 1500 the life expectancy of a nobleman in England who had reached age 20 was about 70--about the world average in 2017. Infant Mortality rates were high back then, skewing averages, and during the Middle Ages they had the Bubonic Plague, skewing it even more...

Perhaps he was referring more to amount of responsibility at age 18 rather than % of lifespan?

Re: Many Colleges Fail to Improve Critical-Thinking Skills

#86

Post by lazyasciiart »

poikniok wrote: post #27
themodelplumber wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was a part-time college instructor and agree. Some of the smarter students IMO were the homeless, poor, and others who paid little to nothing. I taught a homeless ex-Stanford professor who was well known in the community and he was very sharp. The rest were mostly under no illusions about what they were there to do: Get a degree or certificate and move along. It doesn't take much critical thinking to recognize a st…

How exactly did a Stanford professor end up homeless? And why in the world would they be taking classes afterwards?

I expect that most cases of people going from a solid social position to homeless involve mental illness and/or addiction.

Re: Many Colleges Fail to Improve Critical-Thinking Skills

#87

Post by greglindahl »

mowenz wrote: post #80
chii wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dunno if i can trust a doctor who hasnt been through a rigorous course of several years, but self studied to pass the certification. May be if the certification process is very stringent, and take into account many practical skills, and the evaluation and have little false positives...

I was actually talking about a pre-med degree to apply to med school. I also would prefer a doctor who has been through med school and residency.

Even pre-med has a lot of lab courses, which are a bit more difficult to do with self-study than straight textbook-based instruction.

Re: Many Colleges Fail to Improve Critical-Thinking Skills

#89

Post by raleighm »

Many comments here are about the value of higher ed generally and are fascinating to read, but I'm interested in critical reasoning particularly, and this study doesn't surprise me.

(1) Critical reasoning is rarely taught directly, especially to students who don't major in or take a philosophy course.

(2) Even when critical reasoning is taught directly, it's poorly taught. Compare an introductory text on critical reasoning from fifty years ago with one today. You will find that the former feels like it's written for a user of reasoning (which is as it should be written) and the latter is written for explainers of reasoning (colleagues or future academics, I guess?). Jargony, technical, prolix, etc.

(3) Too many professors in the humanities are influenced by a conception of argumentation-as-narrative rather than argumentation-as-truthseeking, or deny there's a distinction or that the latter is possible. Quality of indirect/incidental critical reasoning education is not what it used to be.

(4) STEM education overemphasizes formal logic. Most of our daily reasoning that's worthy of being called "logic" is informal logic.

Outside of university is more important, but things don't look great there either, for reasons everyone here is already familiar with. Echo chambers. Loss of nuance as deliberation is framed in terms that can easily be liked/hearted/shared/retweeted. Curious what, if anything, folks here think could be done to turn things around.

[Edited for clarity.]

Re: Many Colleges Fail to Improve Critical-Thinking Skills

#90

Post by foldr »

raleighm wrote: post #89

Many comments here are about the value of higher ed generally and are fascinating to read, but I'm interested in critical reasoning particularly, and this study doesn't surprise me. (1) Critical reasoning is rarely taught directly, especially to students who don't major in or take a philosophy course. (2) Even when critical reasoning is taught directly, it's poorly taught. Compare an introductory text on critical rea…

>STEM education overemphasizes formal logic.

Few people with STEM degrees have taken a single course in formal logic.

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