Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Everything's Blub All Over Again

news.ycombinator.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

11–20 of 66 posts

Re: Everything's Blub All Over Again

#11

Post by webnrrd2k »

Xichekolas wrote: post #5
daniel-cussen wrote: post #4

I've wondered if one could arrive at a good decision using no evidence or facts , but only based on how the different sides debate the issue. The idea is you could determine which party is right based solely on how they say things, rather than how strong the evidence is. You look at how different parties debate. You then compare their styles or types of arguments with debates from the past that have since been settle…

I've always held that the person that is the most angry is the one that is least sure of his position. It's not useful as the only predictor, because people's emotional involvement in ideas can vary, but I find it to be useful meta-information.

Here's a rule-of-thumb that I go by: Whoever takes the other side into account best is the winner. For example:

Side 1: Language x sucks because of y!

Side 2: While it's true that x potentially sucks because of y, y is easily mitigated by z, and y still offers benefits a, b, & c that most other languages don't.

Even if you have only a shallow understanding of the argument, it's easy to see that in most real-world arguments Side 2 should win.

It's related to who gets angriest because people usually get angry because they have run out of other options.

Re: Everything's Blub All Over Again

#12

Post by jk4930 »

Why can't we simply admit to the jealous world of corporate wanna-be lions (i.e. pussycats) that we are the creme de la creme and they are not. We are always smarter, faster, stronger, and more sexy. We have more fun and self-esteem. We are on top of the evolutionary and social ladder. We are the gold standard. And we troll them down on their hate-blogs while we compile our next cash cow.

Re: Everything's Blub All Over Again

#13

Post by gruseom »

The funny thing about Blub was (if I recall correctly), pg introduced the concept explicitly to avoid offending the users of any specific language. When someone is offended by what you're doing to avoid offending them, you've clearly touched a nerve.

Personally, I like this whole discussion because, agree or disagree, the frame of the debate is exactly what I'd like it to be: what creative people can do about the soul-destroying culture of most software jobs. Paul Graham's essays have done an amazing job of raising this question. The emotions they've provoked (or more precisely, the emotions people already feel which they believe the essays have provoked) can't and shouldn't be factored out of it.

Re: Everything's Blub All Over Again

#14

Post by xproduct »

I choose to remain emotionally neutral about this article simply because taking it to heart either positively or negatively is counterproductive. I believe others have already pointed this out, but use of the lion metaphor is not unintentional. Lion is widely recognized as being the "King of the Jungle" -- a powerful and virile animal.

This is an undue specialization, a form of flattery. If anything, this alone should leave all programmers satisfied, because naturally, not everyone fit this definition or can duly ascribe it to themselves, whether they formed a successful startup or not.

A more general "animals in the jungle/zoo" might have equally well served to enrage both camps. In that instance, the onus of deciding which animal is being spoken of would lay on each individual -- some of whom would wind up with rather silly characterizations such as: ape, rat, etc.

Re: Everything's Blub All Over Again

#15

Post by pg »

Xichekolas wrote: post #3

I'm just sick of hearing about it. This is like the OJ Simpson trial of hacker news. Or I should say Reddit. The responses here were fairly normal until someone pointed out that reddit-ers were freaking out about it. I really hate to beat the old 'reddit is teh dumb' dead horse, but it kind of seems like it sometimes. I think someone read into that essay what he wanted in a search for controversy, and then a lot of p…

The situation with reddit is a unique one. I think I'm the only person who both writes a lot and started a news site. Not surprisingly, people who like what I write tended to switch to that news site. The switch was particularly extreme in the case of reddit, because News.YC is in a sense an offshoot of reddit: most people who switched from another site to this one came from there.

The result is that practically anyone left on reddit who has an opinion about me has a bad one. At this point, I could write an essay saying 1 + 1 = 2, and the reddit comment thread would be pretty unanimous that I was mistaken, and moreover, an asshole for saying so.

Usually this doesn't effect anything much, but I think you're right that it did in this case. I exchanged email with Atwood and it seemed clear he'd been influenced by the tone of the reddit thread.

I don't think there's anything one could actually do about this problem. I only mention this because it is so far as I know a novel one.

Re: Everything's Blub All Over Again

#16

Post by xlnt »

pg wrote: post #15
Xichekolas wrote: post #3

I'm just sick of hearing about it. This is like the OJ Simpson trial of hacker news. Or I should say Reddit. The responses here were fairly normal until someone pointed out that reddit-ers were freaking out about it. I really hate to beat the old 'reddit is teh dumb' dead horse, but it kind of seems like it sometimes. I think someone read into that essay what he wanted in a search for controversy, and then a lot of p…

The situation with reddit is a unique one. I think I'm the only person who both writes a lot and started a news site. Not surprisingly, people who like what I write tended to switch to that news site. The switch was particularly extreme in the case of reddit, because News.YC is in a sense an offshoot of reddit: most people who switched from another site to this one came from there. The result is that practically anyo…

Of course there is something you could do. People aren't static. So what if the people who like you came here, and the ones who didn't stayed there? If you say good enough things everyone will like you and it will be a mute point.

Sure it's harder because there is some initial negative reaction to overcome from the reddit group. And it may not be the best use of your time. But it could be done with sufficient skill.

Re: Everything's Blub All Over Again

#17

Post by xlnt »

raganwald wrote: post #6
Xichekolas wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always held that the person that is the most angry is the one that is least sure of his position. It's not useful as the only predictor, because people's emotional involvement in ideas can vary, but I find it to be useful meta-information.

Compare and contrast with: "To raise your voice is to confess you have run out of arguments."

What if the other person is just being an idiot? What if you think he's not capable of understanding? What if he's a child? What if you think he's trolling? Is better argument still the way to go?

Re: Everything's Blub All Over Again

#18

Post by shiranaihito »

> All this no-restraint bashing of an interesting article ("you shouldn't have used the 'lions in cages' metaphor! Now I feel terrible! Bghwaaa-waaa-waaa") is really getting on my nerves.

Yes, I think Jeff overreacted too :)

Anyone would love to get (really) rich, and founders have a lot better chance of that happening than employees do.

So people are upset about not having that chance (at least while they're employees).

It's natural to feel like founding a startup is just more than you can handle, and maybe that's what's bothering most people.

Knowing that them founding something is very unlikely to happen, they insist that working on cool stuff is way more important anyway.

Something like the software equivalent of a cure for cancer can only be deemed more important than founding a startup, that's for sure.

But what most people seem to be missing is that being a founder doesn't prevent you from doing something noble later on - rich or not.

Re: Everything's Blub All Over Again

#20

Post by raganwald »

xlnt wrote: post #17
raganwald wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Compare and contrast with: "To raise your voice is to confess you have run out of arguments."

What if the other person is just being an idiot? What if you think he's not capable of understanding? What if he's a child? What if you think he's trolling? Is better argument still the way to go?

I am a parent, so I can answer your question with respect to children: raising your voice does not do anything except escalate the discussion into an emotional melt-down.

With respect to people you deem to be idiots and trolls, we have known the answer for a very long time. One of the more amusing bits of advice about the matter came from Mark twain:

"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."

Post reply on HN