Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

HEIF – High Efficiency Image File Format

nokiatech.github.io

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 122 posts

Re: HEIF – High Efficiency Image File Format

#71

Post by Houshalter »

agentgt wrote: post #17
Adamantcheese wrote: post #12

I wonder how it compares to FLIF, which looks like it has a formal release finally. http://flif.info/

It looks like FLIF doesn't really support lossy well (its sort of fake lossy). "FLIF does not have a lossy mode, but interlaced files can be decoded progressively so we can simply use something like dd if=lossless.flif of=lossy.flif bs=1024 count=5" You can see this in the examples where BPG does well in stream loading: https://nokiatech.github.io/heif/technical.html HEIF would probably be similar to BPG in performan…

Lossless compression can be made lossy by slightly modifying every pixel in ways that make them compress better. E.g. if there is a random black pixel in the middle of a white field, just make it white and you save 3 bytes. That's how lossy PNG works. IMO that's a more elegant way of doing lossy compression.

Re: HEIF – High Efficiency Image File Format

#72

Post by [deleted] »

zokier wrote: post #39
niftich wrote: post #20

This seems conceptually most similar to Fabrice Bellard's proposal 'BPG' [1], which was essentially a lightweight wrapper around an HEVC I-frame. The format got small amounts of attention in encoding circles, but didn't pick up mainstream traction. The image encoding layer of HEIF is the same HEVC, but the container is MPEG-4 Part 12 (the Quicktime-descendant ISO Base Media Format; the core behind .mp4, .3gp, etc.),…

I think the significance of compatibility is increasingly diminishing due the effect of "clouds" and other walled gardens that handle your data in a more integrated manner. With the advent of wasm etc it is not completely unreasonable to ship your own image decoder with the application, and optionally a JPEG encoder for on-demand client side re-encoding for exporting images. There is just less expectations to be able…

[deleted]

Re: HEIF – High Efficiency Image File Format

#73

Post by abritinthebay »

Veratyr wrote: post #70
threeseed wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're talking nonsense. H.265 is an ITU-T standard and was adopted as the standard for broadcast television ATSC. This isn't an Apple developed codec. And many more companies support it over AoM: http://www.mpegla.com/main/programs/HEVC/Pages/Licensors.asp... http://www.mpegla.com/main/programs/HEVC/Pages/Licensees.asp... http://www.hevcadvance.com/pdfnew/LicensorList.pdf http://www.hevcadvance.com/pdfnew/LicenseeLi…

> This isn't an Apple developed codec. I didn't say it was, I said Apple was pursuing it. > And many more companies support it over AoM You can't claim that yet as AV1 isn't yet finalized.

> You can't claim that yet as AV1 isn't yet finalized.

Do more companies support it? Yes.

Failure to ship is also a competitive disadvantage - AV1 may be great (we don't know) but if this one gets traction first that may not matter.

Re: HEIF – High Efficiency Image File Format

#74

Post by abritinthebay »

zokier wrote: post #26

While the basic idea of using HVEC for still image compression is good, I'm somewhat concerned on how complex the whole format, especially the container, for HEIF is. It is kinda cute and from one viewpoint pragmatic to reuse existing container format, but I'm afraid the flexibility might have unforeseen and undesirable side-effects. And of course there is the problem of different implementations supporting different…

If PSD's have shown us anything: it's that complexity of the container doesn't matter to adoption, software support does.

It's a standard format, it's faster than the competition, it has just as good (or better) quality vs compression metrics...

... all it needs is support and it'll take off. Apple is a good start for that.

Re: HEIF – High Efficiency Image File Format

#75

Post by abritinthebay »

Veratyr wrote: post #67
threeseed wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

H.265 is already in shipping hardware from Sony, LG, Samsung, Intel, AMD, ARM, Nvidia etc. As I listed above there are at least 100+ more companies supporting H.265 than AoM. Including the most important of all the broadcast standard for terrestrial TV which is still hugely popular in many countries. Also without Apple it's over. YouTube and Netflix will be forced to support H.265 or give up on iOS/OSX users (350 mil…

> As I listed above there are at least 100+ more companies supporting H.265 than AoM. AV1 isn't finalized yet . Of course HEVC is being shipped in more stuff, it's being shipped at all. I'm not debating this, there's no debate. At present HEVC has more support than a codec that isn't yet finished. H.264 had more support when VP9 was being developed too, that doesn't make VP9 inferior to H.264. > broadcast standard fo…

> AV1 isn't finalized yet.

You keep saying that as if it solves anything.

Released > Unreleased.

Is that a criticism of the format's potential? No! But it may as well not exist until it is finalized... so it can't be a competitor to a format that has been.

Re: HEIF – High Efficiency Image File Format

#76

Post by amaranth »

threeseed wrote: post #64
Veratyr wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the link you posted is using x265 which as the article suggests was ranked 4th out the 6 available encoders The other encoders there are commercial or not publicly available as far as I can tell, so it's hard to use them as a comparison. Plus according to that PDF, the best encoder is 0.85x x265, which is about the same as AV1 in its present state in the video I linked. And again, AV1 isn't even finalized yet, so I…

H.265 is already in shipping hardware from Sony, LG, Samsung, Intel, AMD, ARM, Nvidia etc. As I listed above there are at least 100+ more companies supporting H.265 than AoM. Including the most important of all the broadcast standard for terrestrial TV which is still hugely popular in many countries. Also without Apple it's over. YouTube and Netflix will be forced to support H.265 or give up on iOS/OSX users (350 mil…

Google's answer to this is to (currently) support VP9 and H264. iOS and Safari users just get the inferior quality video.

Re: HEIF – High Efficiency Image File Format

#77

Post by lern_too_spel »

abritinthebay wrote: post #73
Veratyr wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This isn't an Apple developed codec. I didn't say it was, I said Apple was pursuing it. > And many more companies support it over AoM You can't claim that yet as AV1 isn't yet finalized.

> You can't claim that yet as AV1 isn't yet finalized. Do more companies support it? Yes. Failure to ship is also a competitive disadvantage - AV1 may be great (we don't know) but if this one gets traction first that may not matter.

HEVC is competing against VP9. AV1 is competing against the successor to HEVC.

Re: HEIF – High Efficiency Image File Format

#78

Post by nkkollaw »

jacobolus wrote: post #37
wereHamster wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At last for the web (which is what WebP targets mostly, right?) you don't need broad support. We have the new element where the UA selects the most appropriate image from a list of options. So Chrome will prefer webp, other browsers will pick jpeg, png or whatever else they support at the moment.

If possible, I’d much prefer having a single format that is widely supported, hardware accelerated, and with a state-of-the-art codec. Making content authors create multiple different files in different formats—some with deficient feature support—sounds like a pain in the butt for everyone. If we can get everyone to agree on a format that handles layers, exposure bracketing, transparency, animation, high bit depth, d…

There are services like Imgix that will do the conversion automatically on the fly, you don't have to convert images manually.

Re: HEIF – High Efficiency Image File Format

#79

Post by [deleted] »

jacobolus wrote: post #37
wereHamster wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At last for the web (which is what WebP targets mostly, right?) you don't need broad support. We have the new element where the UA selects the most appropriate image from a list of options. So Chrome will prefer webp, other browsers will pick jpeg, png or whatever else they support at the moment.

If possible, I’d much prefer having a single format that is widely supported, hardware accelerated, and with a state-of-the-art codec. Making content authors create multiple different files in different formats—some with deficient feature support—sounds like a pain in the butt for everyone. If we can get everyone to agree on a format that handles layers, exposure bracketing, transparency, animation, high bit depth, d…

[deleted]

Re: HEIF – High Efficiency Image File Format

#80

Post by slackingoff2017 »

TD-Linux wrote: post #59

The license in the provided implementation seems to be a custom, non-commercial, non-OSI-approved license [1]. It also includes a patent grant, but excludes codec patents, making it even more useless (Nokia can't license other people's HEVC patents, of course). It's based on the LGPL-licensed libde265 library. [1] https://github.com/nokiatech/heif/blob/master/LICENSE.TXT

Lol Nokia has Codec patents on HEVC too. So they're granting a license that doesn't include their HEVC patents or anyone elses? Is this the library equivalent of a Honeypot? Maybe they're not getting enough royalties.
Post reply on HN