Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#171

Post by jansho » Mon, Jun 05, 2017, 10:16 PM UTC

Mz wrote: post #142

jansho wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> company has to really push for women-friendly policies to be a great place for women to work, which I happen to completely disagree with. Could you elaborate a little bit more please, beyond the cringey paper-scissor activities?

It is extremely common for something like "women-friendly policies" to be code for "we talk a good game, so shut the fuck up and quit making us look bad, you whiny bitch." I do not have a tech job, but I have taken classes on things like social psychology. Attempts to address sexism, racism, etc often suffers from a problem of tokenism. This is not just the problem described in Dedeh Howard's "Black Mirror" of "We al…

Tokenism is definitely an ass. I happen to come with a baggage of other labels (minority within minority within minority...) and even in so-called open environments, I often find myself on this super awkward scale:

- Ignored (only for the same idea to be suggested by another, receiving whoop-whoop, pat on the back)

- Disdained (do your job yeah but you're not supposed to do it so well it makes your colleagues inferior)

- Tokenistic photo add-on

I ain't taking that crap anymore so I'm flying solo now.

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#172

Post by nostrademons » Mon, Jun 05, 2017, 10:21 PM UTC

Mz wrote: post #163

nostrademons wrote: post #80

Disclaimer: not a woman, but this exact question just recently came up among several of my female friends in another forum I follow. I'm not sure I like or agree with their conclusions, but I'll pass them on in the hopes they'll be useful. They came up with two big questions that have surprising predictive power: 1.) Do you have daughters? 2.) Does your wife work outside the home? (Probably couched in more neutral la…

The reason for asking about whether the wife works outside the home is that in two-career couples, the husband necessarily needs to take on a larger share of the housework & childcare, which makes them more sympathetic to the constraints & sacrifices that a working mother has to make. It is a lot more complicated than that. My ex was very idealistic and sincerely saw himself as pro women's lib, yet we had this 1950's…

I meant it (well, they did...I'm just passing along conclusions) the other way around - having a boss where the wife has a career equal to his is a positive indication, while having one with a stay-at-home wife is a negative indication. The idea is that someone who has chosen to marry and stay married to a career woman is quite literally putting his money where his mouth is when it comes to women's equality: he's making concrete sacrifices with his time to ensure that housework & childcare is split between partners, because otherwise it just wouldn't get done. And because of this, he's more likely to be understanding & empathetic when faced with employees who have to make the same trade-offs.

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#173

Post by ry_ry » Mon, Jun 05, 2017, 10:23 PM UTC

judy_I wrote: post #19

I am a woman and work in Boston as an engineer currently programming web apps for a consulting company. I had plenty of good experiences but also had a couple of bad ones. I could always catch something during the interview and or when you walk in. I would first evaluate the employer before I evaluate the team. You will need to find an employer that think highly of women. The founder of my company relies heavily on a…

Somebody also has to be the first strong female employee in any given company. Obviously headcount is a huge factor here, but in isolation I honestly think that kind of reasoning can be misleading.

If you are interviewing and discount an otherwise promising potential employer out of hand for not having enough women onboard already, what can they do to rebalance the situation beyond continuing to bring a diverse range of solid candidates in for interview?

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#174

Post by hfkeysrdhf » Mon, Jun 05, 2017, 10:23 PM UTC

VLM wrote: post #141

In the military we work with all sorts of people, at least with respect to gender, race, religion, and to a lesser extent sexuality. At the same time, admittedly most were Republican and none of us did drugs. If you're willing work with Republicans and/or non-drug users (most tech people are super far left and absolutely will not) then working for an ex-mil manager or with ex-mil coworkers will likely be an extremely…

If you're willing work with Republicans and/or non-drug users (most tech people are super far left and absolutely will not)

The vast majority of tech workers either do not care or would dislike it if their co-workers did drugs. To say that they would only work with people who use drugs is preposterous.

Also, even at the Silicon Valley companies whose workers you are presumably referring to, political ideologies are, in my own experience, much more diverse than you may expect.

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#175

Post by roguecoder » Mon, Jun 05, 2017, 10:24 PM UTC

thisone wrote: post #126

JimboOmega wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Any place with crap culture is crap culture for almost everyone, no matter gender-identity or race. I can't agree with you. If you work for a company that makes negative assumptions about you because of your gender/race, you'll have a worse experience than when they make positive assumptions. It's about things like when you bring up an idea in a meeting, and it's totally ignored, and the guy across the table brings…

A place that allows discrimination is not a positive environment for everyone who is not part of the discriminated group. People who are not part of the discriminated group do see what's going on. However they are often powerless themselves to do anything other than leave. A toxic environment affects almost everyone exposed to it.

It is a positive place for people who value being able to discriminate.

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#176

Post by Mz » Mon, Jun 05, 2017, 10:25 PM UTC

nostrademons wrote: post #172

Mz wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason for asking about whether the wife works outside the home is that in two-career couples, the husband necessarily needs to take on a larger share of the housework & childcare, which makes them more sympathetic to the constraints & sacrifices that a working mother has to make. It is a lot more complicated than that. My ex was very idealistic and sincerely saw himself as pro women's lib, yet we had this 1950's…

I meant it (well, they did...I'm just passing along conclusions) the other way around - having a boss where the wife has a career equal to his is a positive indication, while having one with a stay-at-home wife is a negative indication. The idea is that someone who has chosen to marry and stay married to a career woman is quite literally putting his money where his mouth is when it comes to women's equality: he's mak…

Oh, I know which way you meant it. I was agreeing with you and saying "Men with old fashioned marriages are often incapable of putting their money where their mouth is, no matter how much they would like to see themselves as enlightened and egalitarian. It is a dance they may have zero experience with. Imagining they can do this dance and actually practicing the dance steps is where their ideals and their choices part company."

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#177

Post by khazhoux » Mon, Jun 05, 2017, 10:26 PM UTC

nostrademons wrote: post #172

Mz wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason for asking about whether the wife works outside the home is that in two-career couples, the husband necessarily needs to take on a larger share of the housework & childcare, which makes them more sympathetic to the constraints & sacrifices that a working mother has to make. It is a lot more complicated than that. My ex was very idealistic and sincerely saw himself as pro women's lib, yet we had this 1950's…

I meant it (well, they did...I'm just passing along conclusions) the other way around - having a boss where the wife has a career equal to his is a positive indication, while having one with a stay-at-home wife is a negative indication. The idea is that someone who has chosen to marry and stay married to a career woman is quite literally putting his money where his mouth is when it comes to women's equality: he's mak…

Is there any actual evidence of this?

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#178

Post by bethly » Mon, Jun 05, 2017, 10:28 PM UTC

VLM wrote: post #141

In the military we work with all sorts of people, at least with respect to gender, race, religion, and to a lesser extent sexuality. At the same time, admittedly most were Republican and none of us did drugs. If you're willing work with Republicans and/or non-drug users (most tech people are super far left and absolutely will not) then working for an ex-mil manager or with ex-mil coworkers will likely be an extremely…

That was not my experience working at a defense contractor, and it was obviously not because I do drugs. I haven't found military service a relevant signal for levels of sexism, either positive or negative.

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#179

Post by s73ver » Mon, Jun 05, 2017, 10:28 PM UTC

kazinator wrote: post #25

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #15

Disclaimer/warning: Straight white male responding. But it seems to me that an environment that is toxic for women is also an environment that I would find at least somewhat toxic - not because the crap is hitting me , but because there's a bunch of crap. So what I look for might be useful to you. I'm older - 55 - and some of what I have is just "hey, this feels like that place that I worked, and it was pretty crummy…

Free beer is an attractor only to completely stupid people. Stupid, on multiple fronts. Firstly, even if you like beer, it's bad for your health to have daily, unfettered access to it. Secondly, it's cheap. Anyone with two brain cells to rub together puts an objective dollar value on these sorts of free perks. A beer is worth so many dollars; how many a week of them could you reasonably enjoy? You'd be stupid to be p…

"It will make people less socially inhibited, which means that tiny dickheads that normally have decent self-control will behave like big dickheads."

Even at the offices I've worked at that were beer friendly, you'd find yourself in deep trouble if you drank enough to get that drunk during work.

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#180

Post by roguecoder » Mon, Jun 05, 2017, 10:33 PM UTC

gaius wrote: post #104

DanielleMolloy wrote: post #41

You need a filter that removes the toxic people, and moves you closer to potential jobs at the same time. I agree with some commenters here that this is a problem for all sorts of people, i.e. including white dudes; given that many are entering the field that are mostly driven by money and coolness. One suggestion: Search for events and meet-ups where people gather that are driven by a higher-goal idealism – dependin…

I agree with some commenters here that this is a problem for all sorts of people, i.e. including white dudes; given that many are entering the field that are mostly driven by money and coolness. Yep that's a subtlety that's often overlooked: brogrammers are an alien culture that colonized tech. Old skool geeks were next to never misogynists, they might have lacked social skills but they were never malicious or aggres…

Geek culture has always been sexist, and much of it included malicious, objectifying sexism. Ask anyone who's been going to cons for 20+ years and you will hear stories that curl your hair. Even in the programming sphere, just look at the Mythical Man Month: it assumes the only woman on the team is the secretary.