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Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

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Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counterpoint: say you had been admitted to Harvard and were coming from Mexico, or were the victim of a sexual assault during high school. How would you feel if you found out that your new classmates had been sharing racist images, or memes about the abuse of children? What if one of those students had been placed as your freshman roommate? > College is the time to not only learn new ideas, but also to un-learn thing…

But at the same time, there must be a line drawn somewhere, surely? Yes - it's fully reasonable for Harvard to rescind admission for someone who's a convicted felon, for example. But posting offensive memes on the internet isn't illegal. Saying racist/sexist things isn't illegal. It's certainly something to have a conversation about, but not to totally alter their future. If I write an extremely offensive admissions…

> or a chance to explain themselves.

You imply that media condoning racism, and sexual violence can be justified.

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that what they posted was offensive. But we can't start holding graduating high school students to the same standards we hold world and business leaders. Ironically, we didn't for Trump, but that's certainly the idea. Revoking one's admission to Harvard is a really rough way to teach the lesson of what you're supposed to and not supposed to say. College is the time to not only learn new ideas, but also to un-…

I don't think that standards should be lowered for high school seniors. These are people who are legally allowed to vote, join the army, buy guns, etc.., and for these people it's go to Harvard. They should know that it's unacceptable to share memes about sexual violence, racism, and whatnot, especially on Facebook. When I was in 6th grade (I'm 21 now), my school gave us the talk about the internet, saying that whate…

When I was graduating high school not long before you, it was still socially acceptable to use gay slurs. The social change happened fast, and not evenly in all places. Society needs to have some grace of we aren't too have a huge group of people bitter about being punished for breaking a new social rule. Besides that, we have a tendency to oversimplify and assume every race-related thing is racism, so I don't trust or society to police speech.

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that what they posted was offensive. But we can't start holding graduating high school students to the same standards we hold world and business leaders. Ironically, we didn't for Trump, but that's certainly the idea. Revoking one's admission to Harvard is a really rough way to teach the lesson of what you're supposed to and not supposed to say. College is the time to not only learn new ideas, but also to un-…

I don't think that standards should be lowered for high school seniors. These are people who are legally allowed to vote, join the army, buy guns, etc.., and for these people it's go to Harvard. They should know that it's unacceptable to share memes about sexual violence, racism, and whatnot, especially on Facebook. When I was in 6th grade (I'm 21 now), my school gave us the talk about the internet, saying that whate…

When I was graduating high school not long before you, it was still socially acceptable to use gay slurs. The social change happened fast, and not evenly in all places. Society needs to have some grace of we aren't too have a huge group of people bitter about being punished for breaking a new social rule. Besides that, we have a tendency to oversimplify and assume every race-related thing is racism, so I don't trust or society to police speech.

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#294
post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But at the same time, there must be a line drawn somewhere, surely? Yes - it's fully reasonable for Harvard to rescind admission for someone who's a convicted felon, for example. But posting offensive memes on the internet isn't illegal. Saying racist/sexist things isn't illegal. It's certainly something to have a conversation about, but not to totally alter their future. If I write an extremely offensive admissions…

> or a chance to explain themselves. You imply that media condoning racism, and sexual violence can be justified.

not necessarily; terms are fluid, words mean different things in different contexts.

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#295
post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To your first point: It's certainly immoral to be a true bigot, but it's more immoral to silence dark humor simply because of the one individual who believes it. In fact, I would argue that attempting to stifle these individuals is what amplifies their tendency to hold bigoted views. For example, if you're in an in-real-life group conversation and you're all friends and you're roasting another friend for something he…

More immoral to silence bigotry than to be a bigot? I find that hard to accept. At the legal level, sure, no one should be prosecuted for being a dick. But that isn't what we're discussing here, we're talking about setting the tone of a community of people, in a way that maximizes both everyone's enjoyment and the amount of stuff they can get done. Tolerating bigotry fatally undermines both of those. As for the bad a…

I think we just have different views on how to approach bigotry. We both can agree that it is a black mark on our society and we should overcome it as a culture.

However, where we disagree is how to do it. I see the current climate of "preventing the spread of bigoted ideas" as creating what we know as the alt-right. If you check 4chan's /pol/, you will see an incredible amount of people admit to becoming alt-right because "so many snowflakes are always so offended and call me names". If, however, we as a society can more tolerate dark humor and bigoted comments, the bigots either stop talking or evolve to accept more tolerant views. This article as whole is perfect fuel for the alt-right to say "liberals are trying to control everything, even jokes".

To your second point: Pepe wearing a Nazi uniform is not dark comedy. It's racism. They're using memes to further their own ideology, as opposed to the Harvard students who were simply making fun of the offensive nature of the jokes.

Thirdly, I truly don't care for whether or not it's high or low humor. All I'm looking at is intent and whether or not an individual is actively desiring to inflict damage on another group of people. Alt-right memes do this, while the Harvard kids would be the first to admit they were simply making jokes who were not hurting anyone other than the people who decided to be offended by them.

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Framing bigots as "political opponents" has some efficacy as a tactic too How about framing political opponents as "bigots"?

Go re-read the article and tell me again how they're "political opponents"? We're getting sufficiently abstract here that it's worth going back and re-reading what we're actually talking about. Their politics were never at question here, nor was this a political stage. This is a private university choosing who to admit, based on the culture they wish to encourage. Let's not elevate what they were doing to "politics".…

I don't think we're wasting each other's time. Certainly I don't feel as though you are wasting mine, and I hope I may prevail upon your apparently strained patience to the extent of responding to this comment of yours, because I think there's some value to be had in my so doing. Should you wish me to desist thereafter, I will comply without further demur.

> today "bigotry against outgroups" looks a lot like yesterday's "bigotry against outgroups"

In every case, bigotry against an outgroup relies upon defining members of whatever outgroup is targeted by their membership in that outgroup, and nothing else. People being basically decent as we are, the only way to support the argument that X outgroup has got to go, is by first establishing in the mind of one's interlocutor the certainty that membership in X outgroup is so bad, so utterly and uniquely exclusive by nature of every possible countervailing virtue, that in this specific case it is reasonable - indeed, that it's righteous - to mete out to members of X outgroup treatment whose infliction upon anyone else would be iniquitous in the extreme.

Such a concept is not easy to establish, people being basically decent as we are. Recent history recommends one method as especially efficacious toward that end - that of inventing or selecting a name generally used in reference to a given outgroup, and then investing not the members of that outgroup directly, but rather that name in itself, with all the opprobrium that can be laden upon it. The nature of the name isn't so important; be it a demonym, an ethnonym, a name of choice, or a slur, what matters is that it be generally understood outside the targeted outgroup that the group is the object of the name. Then, by making people despise the name, you can make people despise the group, as well.

There is a subtlety here - it's very hard, people being basically decent as we are, to convince one human being to look upon another not as a fellow deserving of at least some basic modicum of decency, but rather as a disease upon the body politic, meriting excision therefrom by methods otherwise too brutal or mean to be seriously contemplated. But language is the tool we use to understand the world around us, and it should be hardly controversial in the modern age that, by modifying the way we understand language, one may modify the way we understand our world. By investing a name with contempt, therefore, we can heap contempt upon those whom that name describes, much more easily than we could achieve the same end without the same semiotic indirection.

Don't you think it's interesting that you've spent your entire participation in this thread inveighing against "racists" and "sexists" and "bigots", and making very clear that those whom you so describe, you have no problem seeing excluded from social and professional life by means which you'd consider totally unacceptable if applied to those whom you do not place in the categories those names describe? I think it's interesting.

But, as you've rightly pointed out, we are getting awfully abstract, and should bear in mind the situation we're actually talking about here. In that connection, I also think it's interesting how broadly you define these categories you're using. We are, after all, talking about some eighteen-year-old jackasses, which is to say some eighteen-year-old men, who have posted some deeply tasteless and shameful meme pictures on Facebook, mostly in a private group.

That such behavior should be firmly discouraged, we agree; I've mentioned elsewhere in this thread that I would regard disciplinary probation - that is, preemptive advancement to strike two of the notional three, with one more incident of misconduct resulting in summary expulsion - as a proportionate response. Where we part company is in that you find such a response arrantly insufficient. Nothing will do by you but that these young idiots be, not given the opportunity to learn from the gravity of their error, but instead totally and permanently ostracized, from society and from the professions - which is to say, they should be permitted no friends, and they should be permitted no opportunity to pursue whatever careers they might have gone to Harvard to begin. Because they posted some deeply tasteless and shameful meme pictures on Facebook, mostly in a private group.

You're right that we shouldn't forget what we're talking about here. But I think that's precisely what your words show you to have done. You're not talking about some eighteen-year-old jackasses who have perpetuated and played into some truly shitty stereotypes in front of God and everybody, and should be firmly swatted for so doing - but should also be given the opportunity to demonstrate that they have derived a salutary lesson therefrom. You're talking about "racists" and "sexists" and "bigots" as though the subjects of the discussion were, not some young damn fools who, like most young men, enjoy shit-stirring and seeing what they can get away with before someone reins them in, but rather a klavern of hardcore Klansmen long since beyond susceptibility to reason. You speak here as though there were no distinction to be made between the former and the latter, and that simply is not true.

You seem a sensible and thoughtful enough person, and I can't imagine that you are simply not at home to nuance in general - rather, I think the names you're using, and the opprobrium which attaches to them, have blinded you to the nuance which obtains here. Do you think that's very likely to be the only nuance to which you've made yourself blind?

But, of course, that's your problem, to which you'll attend or not as you so choose. It's not the sort of thing with which I'd be comfortable, or one which I could easily compose with a desire to understand, as best I'm able, the world as it actually is, the better that my actions therein be more virtuous than the converse. Should I so err, I'd like to think someone would bring it to my attention. But perhaps you feel otherwise, and in any case I've probably abused your patience just about long enough. "Just about" - one last point and a link, and then I'm done.

You may at this time be inclined to argue that, while I'm not wrong in general about the fashion in which outgroups are demonized by means of those names which apply to them, I am wrong to be concerned with your having done so in this specific case, because, in this specific case, the group you so attack actually deserves it.

And I'm sure you believe that's true! So, after all, has everyone else who has ever deployed this method against anyone. But perhaps this happens simply to be the first time in human history that that claim has had merit.

Finally, the link - I'm hardly the first person to speak on this subject, to say nothing of well respected. If you won't hear it from me, then, perhaps you'll be interested in this not totally dissimilar formulation, which predates mine and originates with someone who I gather is generally held in good regard: http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/30/i-can-tolerate-anything...

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a bit of a difference between "I don't like this" and "I'm going to respond to this by attempting to destroy your social and professional life". It's disingenuous to pretend that your argument encompasses only the former, when identical contentions are so often deployed in support of the latter.

I think "rejection by widespread parts of civilized society" is a clear statement that I support both. Let me be explicit: racists and sexists should find it impossible to maintain a social and professional life, until they stop being racist and sexist. (And in the process, that also improves social and professional settings through their absence.) That's not a violent action, that's a highly effective non-violent ac…

Let me be explicit: racists and sexists should find it impossible to maintain a social and professional life, until they stop being racist and sexist.

In other words: People you very strongly disagree with should find it impossible to maintain a social and professional life, until they stop disagreeing with you. For a society that values consensuality and freedom, this is shortsighted and naively self-centered thinking. Who in the world are you to judge? For much of the 20th century, the majority in supposedly "enlightened" societies prosecuted such a program against homosexuals. Many people doing this even thought to themselves that it was alright, because it was a choice -- just as I've read you advocate about other people's personal philosophy and political thought.

That's not a violent action, that's a highly effective non-violent action.

The human instinct around exclusion from a group is very strong. In prehistoric days, exclusion from the group was tantamount to a sentence of slow, lingering death. For this reason, when a group of people crosses the moral line of using such coercive tactics to enforce their will on another group, they are very close to the parallel moral line involving violence.

Freedom is consensuality. Consensuality can clearly be violated through power and social/emotional pressures that fall short of physical violence. A social/political movement that seeks to enforce its will against those it labels as "wrong thinkers" does not truly believe in consensuality.

Throughout history, such actions are only "highly effective" in contexts where there is effectively absolute political power, and even then, the authorities must escalate even beyond violence to assert their will. Short of that, we know from history that coercion always produces backlash. If you are truly on the side of justice, then you will eschew all forms of injustice, even when they are supposedly for the good. If you are truly for consensuality, then you should strive to convince your political opponents. It's not for me to know one way or another, but if you have devolved to the point where you have given up convincing, and only want to ostracize and shame them, then everything I know about human nature suggests to me that you are in danger of dehumanizing others in your heart and placing yourself above them. Historically, anyone who gets to that point has made the same mistake in their heart has become an opponent of social justice. It is exactly this mistake that was made against homosexuals, jewish people, and black people in the 20th century US. (Note the specificity of context/location when formulating your response.)

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, let's do that. Leaving aside all questions of whether or not this falls within Harvard's disciplinary remit - we'll assume that it does - I would have these students begin their academic careers at the school on disciplinary probation, which I gather is contemplated within its policies on maintaining an acceptable standard of conduct among students. Disciplinary probation, from what I've been able to find in a…

OK, I think I understand your position better then, and largely agree. I'm curious: could you imagine a situation where expulsion would be warranted for these students? Like if they continue to engage in this behavior after being put on disciplinary probation?

Oh, certainly! That's what "disciplinary probation" means - it makes a clear statement that what they've been doing doesn't fly in the society they aspire to join, and gives them an opportunity to demonstrate that they've grasped this and are willing to behave themselves accordingly - or, conversely, that even having had the limits of their desired pale made clear, they scruple not to transgress further.

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And right now the entire university education industry is colluding to suppress certain types of speech; an incident like this could happen at most universities, not just Harvard. So why doesn't freedom of speech also deserve specific legal protection? You still haven't justified treating freedom of speech differently from freedom from discrimination.

I'm having trouble following your logic. In my original comment, I stated that Harvard should have a right to choose who they want to admit or not admit to their school, unless they wanted to discriminate on illegal grounds. Everyone here is exercising their rights. The kids have a right to exercise their rights to free speech, and Harvard has a right to run a business the way they want to run it. Harvard is not a pu…

>The reason we have anti-discrimination laws is because without them, minorities would have no other options.

But those laws exist precisely because people fought to get them in place and be recognized as civil rights. How can you write several paragraphs that sound exactly like rationalizations used for segregation in the 50s [1] and then turn around and talk about anti-discrimination laws?

Well, just like anti-discrimination laws were set in place, so should laws that shouldn't allow businesses to discriminate based on someone exercising their free speech.

[1]: "They can in turn ignore you. You can in turn choose a different university." Seriously, stay classy.

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about government contractors? They're funded by the government. Your way of thinking about it taints every dollar that passes through government, forcing everything that deals with the government to be treated as part of the government.

Being hired to do a job and being funded are two very different things.

You're going to have to do a better job articulating a meaningful difference between the two and why it should matter in this case. Money is money, and control is control. The government is already in the business of running schools. If it wanted to, it could open up another Harvard right down the street and fund and run that however it wants to. The government doesn't give money so that it can control Harvard, it gives money to Harvard so that Harvard can control the money.

If you want to change that, then you need to lead the charge. But it's a political question and not a constitutional one.

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