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Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

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241–250 of 370 posts

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dystopian fiction has given so much terrorizing weight to the concept of "thoughtcrime" and "wrong think" that I think people forget how much positive effect a culture can have on widespread mindsets and stopping ignorance. There are some ignorant thoughts that have almost entirely fallen out of the collective consciousness (in terms of serious belief, not abstract discussion of the past). (As a random example, there…

Punishing speech independent of action isn't a new or controversial concept among certain political strains, most especially among those that also include the conceit of having some special access to virtue beyond that available to others contending for the same power. What you're suggesting here falls right in that line. But it's rarely stated so openly, and while I like nothing else about it, I must admit I like th…

We punish speech all the time, in certain limited and well-defined ways, and is not particularly controversial. Check out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exce... . Threatening someone with bodily harm can be punished, as can libel. These don't cover this particular case, but your statement is vague enough I think this response is warranted.

In general, it's important to note that the separate between speech and action isn't as clear cut as you assert, especially speech made in a public forum. Speech affects others, and words can be used to cause others pain or discomfort. Speech has direct consequences on others just like any action, and this must be considered. Which isn't to say that speech doesn't deserve broad protections, of course.

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#242
On a similar note, it's safe to assume college admissions officers are checking social media profiles, so prospective students should make sure to scrub all high-risk (read: republican) political affiliations and statements from their profile, and maybe pile on some PC-friendly ones.

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#243
post #240
post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand ,how do u stop hate speech?

You defeat bad arguments with good arguments. By the way this is the ONLY way. Silencing those you disagree with will only enrage and mobilize those people, and those people vote. Hence, Trump.

I would argue that Trump is a manifestation of the exact opposite, that no matter how good the argument is, it won't beat a bad one.

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dystopian fiction has given so much terrorizing weight to the concept of "thoughtcrime" and "wrong think" that I think people forget how much positive effect a culture can have on widespread mindsets and stopping ignorance. There are some ignorant thoughts that have almost entirely fallen out of the collective consciousness (in terms of serious belief, not abstract discussion of the past). (As a random example, there…

> There are some ignorant thoughts that have entirely fallen out of the collective consciousness (in terms of serious belief, not abstract discussion of the past). There are many more that need to. After decades of denazification and tabooisation of national socialism and anything related, we still have a shocking proportion of Nazis in Germany. Openly self-identified Nazis, only a fraction of a percent, but people w…

And also (I say this as a left-wing/liberal), I myself want to have a space where I can just say what the fuck I want, without consequences. "It is not my revolution" if I can't say idiotic things in private.

This wasn't particularly private. There had to be some sort of invitation, but it wasn't like the participants all knew each other. The offline analogy isn't a few friends over your house for dinner, it's speaking at a birds of a feather session at a conference.

Do you think Harvard would have rescinded the acceptance of an admitted student, if one of his high school friends forwarded a one-to-one email the admitted student had sent him which contained one of these memes? I tend to think not.

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is stopping them from speaking. Doesn't mean everyone else isn't free to choose not to associate with them. That includes organizations.

So they can keep out everyone they don't really like by an arbitrary set of rules? Maybe you spit out chewing gum somewhere one night and violated the rule of not spitting for one example. I'm not saying that these students are good people or that I endorse anything they said. I'm defending the right of privacy and free speech for anyone at any time.

Yes. Free speech only applies to government censorship, not what private individuals or institutions choose to use to filter those they care to listen to, associate with, or otherwise give the time of day to.

Likewise, privacy isn't really a concern here, since it isn't like the organization broke into their accounts to check up on their privately held conversations or beliefs. It was posted into a group with many other loosely associated members, and was brought to the organization's attention.

In your gum spitting example, it's like spitting out gum in your back yard behind a privacy fence versus spitting out gum in your employer's parking lot and having your boss step in it moments later. It's not private, and it may have consequences.

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#246
post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"People worried about womens' rights in the early 20th century should have realized that Harvard was a private university. If I held a party at my house and didn't want to invite you because you were a woman, you'd get laughed out of court if you tried to sue me over it. People should be allowed to organize under whatever principles they want to organize under. Disallowing Harvard to use whatever criteria they want t…

On the other hand ,how do u stop hate speech?

I'm not entirely sure, but I don't think the situation is to be as censorious as possible. Such things tend to backfire (this is my favorite explanation for the rise of the alt-right), and there's a good chance that the humor was meant ironically (as is all dark humor), not sincerely. If we must punish hate speech, can we at least make sure it is actually, meaningfully hate speech?

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Punishing speech independent of action isn't a new or controversial concept among certain political strains, most especially among those that also include the conceit of having some special access to virtue beyond that available to others contending for the same power. What you're suggesting here falls right in that line. But it's rarely stated so openly, and while I like nothing else about it, I must admit I like th…

We punish speech all the time, in certain limited and well-defined ways, and is not particularly controversial. Check out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exce... . Threatening someone with bodily harm can be punished, as can libel. These don't cover this particular case, but your statement is vague enough I think this response is warranted. In general, it's important to note that the separate…

I agree that I could've been more clear in my prior comment. Here's one in which I more precisely formulated the argument I'm trying to make here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14489045

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#249
post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You defeat bad arguments with good arguments. By the way this is the ONLY way. Silencing those you disagree with will only enrage and mobilize those people, and those people vote. Hence, Trump.

I would argue that Trump is a manifestation of the exact opposite, that no matter how good the argument is, it won't beat a bad one.

Honestly, I couldn't point to many people who were making good arguments during the election. Facts, reason, compromise, and logic are Trump's weaknesses, and those were jettisoned from the political process years ago.

I'd argue that Trump is what happens when the media and major parties stop making good arguments.

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#250

People worried about free speech rights should realize that Harvard is a private university. If I held a party at my house and didn't want to invite you because you called my dog a 'mutt', you'd get laughed out of court if you tried to sue me over it. People should be allowed to organize under whatever principles they want to organize under. Disallowing Harvard to use whatever criteria they want to use to admit stude…

Sure they're private so they aren't bound by law to allow freedom of speech but they still send a bad message by suppressing it.
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