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Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#231

Post by throwanem »

JoshTriplett wrote: post #211
throwanem wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a bit of a difference between "I don't like this" and "I'm going to respond to this by attempting to destroy your social and professional life". It's disingenuous to pretend that your argument encompasses only the former, when identical contentions are so often deployed in support of the latter.

I think "rejection by widespread parts of civilized society" is a clear statement that I support both. Let me be explicit: racists and sexists should find it impossible to maintain a social and professional life, until they stop being racist and sexist. (And in the process, that also improves social and professional settings through their absence.) That's not a violent action, that's a highly effective non-violent ac…

Well, yes, certainly social and professional exclusion of one's political opponents has some historical evidence for its efficacy as a tactic, at least in the short term.

Those of us who have qualms around consequentialism find this efficacy not reason enough to regard such behavior as exemplary of virtue. Those who do not have such qualms might be well advised to consider, from a utilitarian perspective, the ultimate outcomes which recent history has shown profligate use of this tactic to produce. And those who try to disclaim the grasp their political and cultural tendency has on power would do well to remember that this is, always and only, a tactic of hegemony, without which it cannot work at all.

In any case, as I said before, I like the honesty.

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#232

Post by cafard »

misingnoglic wrote: post #126
misterbowfinger wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that what they posted was offensive. But we can't start holding graduating high school students to the same standards we hold world and business leaders. Ironically, we didn't for Trump, but that's certainly the idea. Revoking one's admission to Harvard is a really rough way to teach the lesson of what you're supposed to and not supposed to say. College is the time to not only learn new ideas, but also to un-…

I don't think that standards should be lowered for high school seniors. These are people who are legally allowed to vote, join the army, buy guns, etc.., and for these people it's go to Harvard. They should know that it's unacceptable to share memes about sexual violence, racism, and whatnot, especially on Facebook. When I was in 6th grade (I'm 21 now), my school gave us the talk about the internet, saying that whate…

At 18, you can't sign a lease without a co-signer, you probably can't rent a car. You can't purchase alcoholic beverages or tobacco products in the US. Yes, you can join the military, but there you spend time under very close supervision.

Universities used to use the term "in loco parentis": I can see a deferral of admission being a suitable equivalent of screaming and taking the computer away.

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#233

Post by metaphorm »

JoshTriplett wrote: post #211
throwanem wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a bit of a difference between "I don't like this" and "I'm going to respond to this by attempting to destroy your social and professional life". It's disingenuous to pretend that your argument encompasses only the former, when identical contentions are so often deployed in support of the latter.

I think "rejection by widespread parts of civilized society" is a clear statement that I support both. Let me be explicit: racists and sexists should find it impossible to maintain a social and professional life, until they stop being racist and sexist. (And in the process, that also improves social and professional settings through their absence.) That's not a violent action, that's a highly effective non-violent ac…

lets have a more realistic conversation about the consequences of shunning and ostracizing people, even if those people are noxious (in some way).

does it really work? it seems to work in-so-far-as it purges specific communities of specific people. it doesn't remove those people from larger society and it most certainly doesn't change their mind. it makes them feel aggrieved to the point where they lash out with redoubled violence. it radicalizes people into extremists where before they may have merely been insensitive now they will be resentful and hateful.

backlash is a real thing and we ignore it at our own peril.

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#234

Post by drak0n1c »

lclarkmichalek wrote: post #16
std_throwaway wrote: post #5

We'll have to create a public and a second, private, personality just like in the old days of the police state. Society is more open than it probably was ever before but at the same time, if close minded leaders of fascist political or religious color came into power they'd have their tools handed to them to create an oppressive apparatus never seen before.

> The students in the spinoff group exchanged memes and images “mocking sexual assault, the Holocaust and the deaths of children,” sometimes directing jokes at specific ethnic or racial groups, the Crimson reported. One message “called the hypothetical hanging of a Mexican child ‘piñata time’” while other messages quipped that “abusing children was sexually arousing,” according to images of the chat described by the…

I think the OP was observing that the development of an apparatus for monitoring and transferring communication logs to decision makers is a tool that can and will be abused by future authorities, regardless of whether they are doing right or wrong.

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#235

Post by weberc2 »

eropple wrote: post #228
weberc2 wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Race wasn't protected in the fifties either, and yet few would argue that it only became oppressive when the laws were changed. Those who would support your argument are the very same you would evict from your holy hill!

If racist jerks end up actually oppressed instead of having to deal with the consequences of their very specific and very active choices (which stand in stark contrast to the genetic/external-social of "race"), I am entirely and one hundred percent onboard with having a conversation about whether society is made better by considering them a protected class. I will not hold my breath on either the likelihood of that o…

I gave my argument, you responded to it with an incorrect nitpick, I corrected you, you tried to dig your way out, and here we are now.

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#236

Post by Simulacra »

std_throwaway wrote: post #12
Simulacra wrote: post #3

What you do and say on social media can and will be used against you.

Extend this to any place connected to the internet or other means of collecting information and linking it to you. Social media is just the easy way in.

I'm going to make my children say it like the pledge of allegiance.

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#238

Post by drakonka »

misterbowfinger wrote: post #63
metaphorm wrote: post #22

I'm so conflicted right now. On the one hand, yeah, that shit is offensive and I'm not too keen on elevating a person who makes jokes about sexual assault or violence against minorities. On the other hand I'm terrified at the creeping surveillance society that has institutions examining all of our utterances for "wrong speech", which is much too close for comfort to "wrong think", which is much too close for comfort…

I agree that what they posted was offensive. But we can't start holding graduating high school students to the same standards we hold world and business leaders. Ironically, we didn't for Trump, but that's certainly the idea. Revoking one's admission to Harvard is a really rough way to teach the lesson of what you're supposed to and not supposed to say. College is the time to not only learn new ideas, but also to un-…

I don't think one should have to be a world or business leader to know that this kind of behaviour is wholly inappropriate. Sometimes (often) real life doesn't pamper us with slaps on the wrist or warnings when we do something completely idiotic. And if they somehow did not realize their behaviour was inappropriate, maybe they weren't quite mentally acute enough for Harvard in the first place and just got filtered out early.

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#239

Post by metaphorm »

bjl wrote: post #173
Houshalter wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See my comment above. It's not any more racism than joking about dead babies means you actually want to kill babies. It's not any more racism than playing cards against humanity makes you an unforgivable monster. Black humor is extremely common and as old as time.

Black humor can still be racist. Something being (ostensibly) a joke doesn't mean it can't be racist/sexist/whatever.

humor with the intention of ridiculing something by using its own tropes to the point of absurdity to show the wrongness/badness of the thing is a well-established form of satire and commentary.

a satirist is emphatically NOT in concordance or agreement with that which they are satirizing. I find it unreasonable that you are arguing against this basic premise. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you. I hope I am because If I am really understanding you correctly it seems to me like you are making something far worse than a fallacious argument, but really something that rises to the level of destructive of the meaning of words.

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#240

Post by gdix »

maxwin wrote: post #220
a_puppy wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"People worried about womens' rights in the early 20th century should have realized that Harvard was a private university. If I held a party at my house and didn't want to invite you because you were a woman, you'd get laughed out of court if you tried to sue me over it. People should be allowed to organize under whatever principles they want to organize under. Disallowing Harvard to use whatever criteria they want t…

On the other hand ,how do u stop hate speech?

You defeat bad arguments with good arguments. By the way this is the ONLY way.

Silencing those you disagree with will only enrage and mobilize those people, and those people vote. Hence, Trump.

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