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Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#131

Post by jcburns »

ziggysak wrote: post #79

I think an article such as this one is a clear example of the generational differences between older and younger people. I'm fairly close to these kids' age and I've browsed memes from /r/dankmemes and enjoyed them. The thing is, is that these memes are supposed to be self-aware of how offensive they are. That's the joke. They're meant to be so offensive and ridiculous that reactions can be drawn from outside spectat…

Evaluating the sincerity of racism and sexism? You're overcomplicating it. The mere expression of it fouls the air and puts a world where people love and respect each other just a little further out of reach. It's like evaluating the motivations of a belching coal smokestack.

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#132

Post by thaumasiotes »

fao_ wrote: post #65
nxsynonym wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

because free speech is universal. You can't cherry pick what topics/views/opinions are protected based on your world view.

People protecting the right of racists to spread racism, support racism. It cannot be any other way. You cannot claim that you dislike racism, and and also want to preserve it. Also, "Free speech" refers to the fact that the government cannot bust in to your house with a SWAT team and arrest you for speaking something that they don't like. Private companies can enforce whatever speech rules they like, and that doesn'…

> There are already numerous hate speech laws covering the fact that the first amendment does not mean that you have a right to say whatever you want in a private space.

Such as?

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#133

Post by alunchbox »

bjl wrote: post #86
alunchbox wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

unfortunately for these 10 ex-applicants of Harvard they might not get into any University period for 2017/2018... This isn't a small implication to them for stupid posts online. I'm not 100% sure if I feel that's fair. them not getting into Harvard is one thing but losing education at this point in time is even worse.

Some of things they said went beyond just 'stupid posts'.

Fair enough it was beyond stupid, sugar coating it isn't going to help. But this is more than just losing a place at Harvard. These individual are at a point in their life where they can finally expand their roots, learn and I use this word lightly but "rehabilitate". Due to the massive culture and intense work ethics they will need to gain to succeed at a place like Harvard. Mind you I do agree they need a form of punishment and Harvard is a business they can do whatever they want. But for these 10 individuals what good can this have for them? it's more like a slippery slope from here on in for them, you never know maybe a few of these individuals were just posting due to peer pressure and some might be blowing off steam just never taught there are better ways. There's things we don't know unfortunately and it just ends up being a sad display of events.

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#134

Post by objclxt »

misterbowfinger wrote: post #63
metaphorm wrote: post #22

I'm so conflicted right now. On the one hand, yeah, that shit is offensive and I'm not too keen on elevating a person who makes jokes about sexual assault or violence against minorities. On the other hand I'm terrified at the creeping surveillance society that has institutions examining all of our utterances for "wrong speech", which is much too close for comfort to "wrong think", which is much too close for comfort…

I agree that what they posted was offensive. But we can't start holding graduating high school students to the same standards we hold world and business leaders. Ironically, we didn't for Trump, but that's certainly the idea. Revoking one's admission to Harvard is a really rough way to teach the lesson of what you're supposed to and not supposed to say. College is the time to not only learn new ideas, but also to un-…

Counterpoint: say you had been admitted to Harvard and were coming from Mexico, or were the victim of a sexual assault during high school. How would you feel if you found out that your new classmates had been sharing racist images, or memes about the abuse of children? What if one of those students had been placed as your freshman roommate?

> College is the time to not only learn new ideas, but also to un-learn things that you may have learned in a toxic environment.

Despite my counterpoint above, you are of course right. I knew of one very aggressive student at Harvard who went around putting posters up of dead fetuses to protest abortion and was against gay marriage - his family was extremely right wing, and that's what he was brought up to believe. Now he's out of the closet, living in SF, and is one of the most liberal people I know. That story may sound clichéd, but I promise you it's true.

But at the same time, there must be a line drawn somewhere, surely? If I write an extremely offensive admissions essay claiming immigrants are sub-human I shouldn't expect to be admitted.

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#135

Post by stcredzero »

JoshTriplett wrote: post #75
metaphorm wrote: post #22

I'm so conflicted right now. On the one hand, yeah, that shit is offensive and I'm not too keen on elevating a person who makes jokes about sexual assault or violence against minorities. On the other hand I'm terrified at the creeping surveillance society that has institutions examining all of our utterances for "wrong speech", which is much too close for comfort to "wrong think", which is much too close for comfort…

Dystopian fiction has given so much terrorizing weight to the concept of "thoughtcrime" and "wrong think" that I think people forget how much positive effect a culture can have on widespread mindsets and stopping ignorance. There are some ignorant thoughts that have almost entirely fallen out of the collective consciousness (in terms of serious belief, not abstract discussion of the past). (As a random example, there…

Dystopian fiction has given so much terrorizing weight to the concept of "thoughtcrime" and "wrong think" that I think people forget how much positive effect a culture can have on widespread mindsets and stopping ignorance.

Authorities, especially institutions of higher learning, shouldn't be in the business of policing their student's speech. That's not "culture." That's oppression. Using bad actions in the service of good is still a bad idea.

If you think that some people are inherently "lesser" than others and can be treated as such, that's wrong.

I sure think it's wrong. But policing that thought by policing speech that results from it is also wrong.

If you think that it's OK to assault people, that's wrong.

Is Harvard going after the "punch a Nazi" memers and advocates with as much vigor? As a liberal, I find that much more distrubing because in that case people are dressing up bad actions and teaching young people to think of them as somehow good and socially redeeming. Is that what we want? Jingoistic ideologues who can commit guiltless violence, supposedly in the name of your values and love? (Ironically, the most used word to describe an emotion at the Nuremberg rally filmed by Leni Reifensthal: Love.)

that it has gone as far as being written and conveyed in ways that influence others makes it more than just thoughts.

Yup. That's called speech. So what you want is authoritarian control of speech. In institutions of higher learning. Like Berkeley, maybe?

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#136

Post by mattnewton »

std_throwaway wrote: post #97
eropple wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They were allowed to speak. They did speak. "Freedom of speech" applies only and strictly to governments, not to a private institution. And that's because the only way "freedom of speech" matters is if others are free to react to you as they please; Harvard might not like you and might tell you to get the hell out of their (and my, as it happens) neighborhood. If you don't like that, then you have options. One, don't…

Cutting down to the point. * What these students did or didn't do does not matter in this case. * Harvard can withdraw the acceptance for anyone at any time for any reason. We don't need to argue about privacy or free speech here. All we can argue about as a first point is if Harvard should have the ability to withdraw their acceptance or not.

Racists are not a protected class. I see no reason why Harvard should not be allowed to act the way they did.

It is unfortunate that they chose to share those memes on a Facebook group chat though, I think the debate is about how not "private" a lot of our "private" chats have become and how sometimes people are just not thinking about where there communications are stored enough. If they had printed pamphlets with the material and shared them with classmates I think the same consequences would have happened, but they would have had more time to stop themselves and think about what could go wrong. Now sending offensive jokes is easy and "private" channels are deceptively public.

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#137

Post by kudu »

nxsynonym wrote: post #58
g051051 wrote: post #41

Considering how competitive the acceptance criteria are for Harvard (2,056 out of 39,506 applications), this is just another decision point. Now 10 other people are able to get in, and the entire body of current and prospective students have learned a valuable lesson about privacy and free speech.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. As a private institution, Harvard can choose to deny acceptance to anyone for any reason. I don't agree with their reasoning, but I agree with their right to decide. Next time don't use Facebook. This is what 4chan is for.

That isn't completely accurate. An acceptance to Harvard is usually unconditional, and can only be withdrawn under very specific circumstances (in this case, they're invoking the circumstance relating to an admitted student's honesty/integrity/moral standing). Just wanted to clear up that there is a big difference between denying someone acceptance at the time of application and withdrawing one. (Source: also admitted to Harvard this year)

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#139

Post by bjl »

ziggysak wrote: post #127
bjl wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'Ironic' racism is still racism.

Actually, it isn't. Racism is based in the belief that one group is superior to the other. If one is making an ironic joke, it does not imply any intent of racism on their part.

Racism is not simply about belief, otherwise there could be no such thing as racist action.

Personally, I couldn't care less what people believe, I care what people do. And in this case what they did was clearly racist.

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#140

Post by Mediterraneo10 »

chatmasta wrote: post #108
Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I saw this firsthand with a former flatmate of mine. He passionately studied Semitic languages and Persian at uni, spent a lot of time traveling or studying abroad in Israel, Arab countries, and Iran. His social circle in Europe was heavy with immigrants from those countries and with them he seemed to be the best of friends. And yet he loved to visit 4chan and collect anti-Semitic and anti-Muslim memes to repost else…

Why do we need to decide if someone is "really racist" in the first place? To make ourselves feel good about being morally superior? To feel offended on behalf of people who we may not even understand? Political correctness really has gotten out of hand, and the sooner people realize this, the sooner they'll begin to understand how we ended up with Trump as president. The pendulum swings both ways. Be careful how har…

I think it’s entirely normal that if you have a friend who expresses two completely opposite sentiments, you wonder which of them he/she really espouses. It has nothing to do with feeling good or superior.
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