On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs nets a higher return • Hacker News Board

Re: On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs nets a higher return

#381

Post by ethbro » Mon, Jun 05, 2017, 2:58 AM UTC

gozur88 wrote: post #327

MrTonyD wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember reading an article describing how college costs can be explained by an analysis of supply and demand. There have been a variety of historic reasons for demand rising at different times - mostly related to unemployment and lack of other economic choices. I keep hearing the meme that low-cost college is the cause of college expense - but college is free in many countries where they are doing quite well. So I…

College in the US is used by employers as a proxy for intelligence, something that's an outgrowth of laws and court rulings that date back to the '70s. So if you want to put yourself on the path to the C-Suite in a Fortune 500 company or to a partnership in a major law firm, you have to get into one of the very top colleges in the country. That, in turn, means top colleges can charge pretty much whatever they want an…

Above and beyond that, and to crib on one of the grandparent comments re: "Eventually, demand will decrease if prices continue increasing":

If the minimum barrier to employment is having a college degree, then people will continue doing whatever they have to in order to get a college degree.

The only way you're going to change demand is if decent jobs start being created that don't require a bachelor's degree. And I don't see that happening...

Re: On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs nets a higher return

#382

Post by roguecoder » Mon, Jun 05, 2017, 2:59 AM UTC

I do notice that this doesn't take into account race and gender. The premium White and Asian men get from a college degree are higher than for any other group (citation: http://images.dailykos.com/images/125386/large/wage_gap_race...) This could be true for some people but not others, in predictable ways.

Re: On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs nets a higher return

#383

Post by learc83 » Mon, Jun 05, 2017, 3:01 AM UTC

dpark wrote: post #380

learc83 wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very few colleges will leave with student loan debt an order of magnitude greater than $20k. That's about the sticker price for 4 years at Harvard. But 70% of their students receive financial aid. Average student loan debt is around $30k. Very few people have $200k student loan debts. >And if you got a degree that led to a $45k Considering that the vast majority of student loans are public loans, and public loans all…

> Very few colleges will leave with student loan debt an order of magnitude greater than $20k. ... Average student loan debt is around $30k You must realize these statements are fundamentally at odds. If the average is $30k, then very clearly most colleges will leave you with $20k+ in debt. The University of Mississippi is an affordable public university that happens to be where I earned my degrees. They estimate $23…

Reread my comment and the OP's:

Very few colleges will leave with student loan debt an order of magnitude greater than $20k.

Re: On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs nets a higher return

#384

Post by _superposition_ » Mon, Jun 05, 2017, 3:02 AM UTC

forkandwait wrote: post #168

krakensden wrote: post #46

As a culture, we really need to stop telling 17 year olds to not worry about money, go to college, and figure something out. There is always someone ready with a romantic appeal to a classical education, and it is so frustrating for me. Wasting four years is a huge cost. Years, decades of debt is a huge cost. Going to college with no plan about money? The costs are assured. Plus, the degrees people are actually getti…

> Wasting four years is a huge cost. At college I: learned calculus, computer programming, advanced mathematics, urban planning, how to communicate like a grown up, and those are just the big topics. I also took acting classes and learned social skills and made lifelong friends. When I graduated, a professor arranged my first professional job which was an order of magnitude better than any blue collar gig I had ever…

>blue collar people WHAT.THE. FUCK

Re: On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs nets a higher return

#385

Post by gozur88 » Mon, Jun 05, 2017, 3:04 AM UTC

learc83 wrote: post #379

gozur88 wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's only public universities, though. How does that explain the corresponding increases at private schools?

First you have to factor in the fact that public schools are a competing good, so when public tuition rises private tuition will as well. Then you have to realize that tuition increases at private schools are misleading. You have to look at what people are actually paying not what the sticker prices. At Harvard, for instance, 70% of students receive financial aid, so they are paying $12k a year on average (not the $6…

But private schools have to compete with each other. If this was really about increased demand from students who would have otherwise gone to public schools, what we'd see is an increase in the number of private schools, not an increase in tuition.

Re: On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs nets a higher return

#386

Post by gozur88 » Mon, Jun 05, 2017, 3:07 AM UTC

ethbro wrote: post #381

gozur88 wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

College in the US is used by employers as a proxy for intelligence, something that's an outgrowth of laws and court rulings that date back to the '70s. So if you want to put yourself on the path to the C-Suite in a Fortune 500 company or to a partnership in a major law firm, you have to get into one of the very top colleges in the country. That, in turn, means top colleges can charge pretty much whatever they want an…

Above and beyond that, and to crib on one of the grandparent comments re: "Eventually, demand will decrease if prices continue increasing": If the minimum barrier to employment is having a college degree, then people will continue doing whatever they have to in order to get a college degree. The only way you're going to change demand is if decent jobs start being created that don't require a bachelor's degree. And I…

>The only way you're going to change demand is if decent jobs start being created that don't require a bachelor's degree. And I don't see that happening...

I do. At the lower end, if employers can't afford to pay people enough to make their loan payments, they'll start hiring people without debt.

Re: On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs nets a higher return

#387

Post by dontJudge » Mon, Jun 05, 2017, 3:13 AM UTC

Clubber wrote: post #372

salesguy222 wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing is free in life except sunlight. Colleges employ people and build buildings and have ongoing costs. Taxpayer money would need to be used to pay for this, and that money must have continued value, otherwise no amount of money would actually get the job done (see Venezuela) Not everyone learns valuable skills at college. You have to watch out for conflating "learning valuable skills" with "occupying space on a…

That's not true. If it nets a return greater than the costs, then the costs don't "cost" anything. Think of it this way: do you think having a large college educated population is a net good or a net bad for the US?

Net bad. Too many degrees reduce their value in the market with poor job prospects. The extra years of education does not create an enlightened utopia.

Re: On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs nets a higher return

#388

Post by ams6110 » Mon, Jun 05, 2017, 3:13 AM UTC

yequalsx wrote: post #110

aaron-lebo wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The top paid coach there is Nick Saban; Alabama football made over $100 million in revenue last year. https://www.seccountry.com/alabama/alabama-football-reported...

Does that include cost of building the stadium? The gyms? I don't think it does.

Typically funds for new or renovated facilities come from donors/boosters.

Re: On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs nets a higher return

#389

Post by Cyph0n » Mon, Jun 05, 2017, 3:14 AM UTC

BoiledCabbage wrote: post #245

Cyph0n wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that simple at all. Regarding buildings and marketing: you have to work hard to attract the absolute top students, especially in a huge education market like the US. Now you may argue that students shouldn't be so superficial, but they are, so universities have to deal with that when competing at the national stage. As for administration, you probably have no idea how complicated it is to keep a university r…

> Regarding buildings and marketing: you have to work hard to attract the absolute top students, especially in a huge education market like the US. Now you may argue that students shouldn't be so superficial, but they are, so universities have to deal with that when competing at the national stage. Yes but that isn't actually making education better overall, it just means you're taking in better students. It's a zero…

So you're proposing regulation of the higher education market? Not a good idea at all, my friend.

Look, public universities in other advanced economies like Japan, Germany, and France probably spend just as much as a typical US state university, yet tuition is basically free. We can argue about how to improve education all day, but let's fund it first so our students don't have to worry about their debts for years. How do we fund it? Higher taxes.

Re: On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs nets a higher return

#390

Post by thesagan » Mon, Jun 05, 2017, 3:16 AM UTC

averagewall wrote: post #361

debaserab2 wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now, I think there is a problem when naive, often blue collar people, go to college and don't know how to make the most of that experience Huh? Isn't anyone going to college almost always a "blue collar" worker due to the fact that they don't have an education suitable to a white collar environment yet? It sounds like you were in a great position to make an informed decision about how to get the most out of your ed…

I think he might mean blue collar culture. If your parents are blue collar workers and you grow up hearing about how bad and arrogant rich people are and professors living in ivory towers who don't know anything about the real world, you're probably going to have a harder time embracing that environment than someone who's been exposed to professionals as role models since childhood. That's part of the cycle of povert…

To be more precise I think blue collar culture is pointing out conceit and arrogance when it refers to a class of people in an "ivory tower" – they're just pointing out a perceived hypocrisy/hubris.

They're leveled towards my field and profession all the time and I see some truth in a lot of it; and then you get shows like Silicon Valley to top it off!

It's good to be the king and all, but let's be honest about how it's really coming off. :)