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On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs nets a higher return

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Re: On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs nets a higher return

#181

Post by TearsInTheRain »

pas wrote: post #175
forkandwait wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wasting four years is a huge cost. At college I: learned calculus, computer programming, advanced mathematics, urban planning, how to communicate like a grown up, and those are just the big topics. I also took acting classes and learned social skills and made lifelong friends. When I graduated, a professor arranged my first professional job which was an order of magnitude better than any blue collar gig I had ever…

> I think there is a problem when [naive -> people], go to college and ... That's the problem. It's not a good system. Too many false positives.

> I think there is a problem when naive, often blue collar people, go to college...

Re: On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs nets a higher return

#182

Post by acchow »

ue_ wrote: post #55
krakensden wrote: post #46

As a culture, we really need to stop telling 17 year olds to not worry about money, go to college, and figure something out. There is always someone ready with a romantic appeal to a classical education, and it is so frustrating for me. Wasting four years is a huge cost. Years, decades of debt is a huge cost. Going to college with no plan about money? The costs are assured. Plus, the degrees people are actually getti…

I'm in university right now, and the reason why I'm here is mainly so that I can get a degree in order to get hired for a job in the field I want. My parents probably got me into it beacuse of the appeal of classical education but also the fact that they want me to get a job, too. Is there any solution to getting a job without a degree? Especially in those technical subjects such as electronic engineering (what I'm d…

You do not need a degree to be a software engineer.

Re: On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs nets a higher return

#183

Post by u801e »

barrkel wrote: post #140
brohoolio wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sports often generate enough revenue to cover the costs for the top tier schools. Top ranked universities use sports to build donations from alumni, brand awareness, etc. If you want to tackle a good portion of the high cost of higher education tackle medical costs. It influences the cost of everything in the US. If you earn $50,000 a year the university is paying another $10,000 - 20,000 for insurance.

This is of course self-reinforcing. The reason they want lots of donations from alumni is because it increases profits. But they can only get those donations if the alumni have very fond memories of college. Thus they need to spend donated money on making students feel like they're part of something special, something they'd want to contribute back to. And that increases costs further. (I went to a humble college, go…

I have no inclination to donate back to the university I attended since I paid more than enough in tuition. Also, as an out of state student at the time, the tuition and fees I paid was used, in part, to subsidize in state student costs.

Re: On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs nets a higher return

#184

Post by forkandwait »

pas wrote: post #175
forkandwait wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wasting four years is a huge cost. At college I: learned calculus, computer programming, advanced mathematics, urban planning, how to communicate like a grown up, and those are just the big topics. I also took acting classes and learned social skills and made lifelong friends. When I graduated, a professor arranged my first professional job which was an order of magnitude better than any blue collar gig I had ever…

> I think there is a problem when [naive -> people], go to college and ... That's the problem. It's not a good system. Too many false positives.

It is a great system for the professional class...

... so I would say the problem is "we need to educated blue collar people better so they take advantage of the opportunities to advancement offered by the educational system". That is very true. But, in general, blue collar people get fucked over in multiple ways and this is just one way.

That is very different than "college is a waste" (jesus, what an idiotic thing to even say out loud...)

Re: On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs nets a higher return

#185

Post by ooqr »

Cyph0n wrote: post #151
ooqr wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's still time opportunity cost for the student and merely shifts the financial burden. I'm not against a liberal education for the betterment of the person, but it's not a sound investment. We should not aim to make college free by means of government sponsorship, but rather education free or inexpensive by means of lowering the actual costs. As someone else said in this thread, certain kinds of knowledge are rat…

> We should not aim to make college free by means of government sponsorship, but rather education free or inexpensive by means of lowering the actual costs. I think that you're vastly underestimating how much money is needed to provide quality higher education. Trust me, the last thing we need is a race to the bottom when it comes to higher education.

I'm absolutely not saying this is an easy problem. I also agree with your last point. I'm being idealistic, I know, but I'm cautious about accepting any proposed solution.

I definitely see the merit in comparing the US to Europe in terms of what has worked. Even as I am cautious, I value societies willing to experiment and progress forward with solutions to problems.

I'm not sure the US system is amenable to the same thing, but I'll bow out at that point and merely listen to what others have to say.

What I do suspect is that the landscape is changing with regards to what jobs need a degree and how easy knowledge is to obtain.

Re: On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs nets a higher return

#186

Post by netsharc »

pmiller2 wrote: post #148
staticelf wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the best solution for individuals in the US is to move to an european country, stay there and work until you get some kind of permenant stay visa or citizenship so you can enter college for free. That usually do not take long for americans. If you have kids you can do it when they're small so they are ready for university when they come of age.

Isn't it rather difficult for a non-EU citizen to become employed in EU member states?

Look up "blue card scheme". If you have a university degree, and you interview somewhere and get the job, and your salary will be over 1.5x average national gross salary (In Germany this calculates to around 39KEUR/year), you will get a residence permit, none of this "is there an EU citizen qualified for the same job" check.

As for the salary, I can only say a German computer science graduate being offered a real programming job would probably laugh at anything below 45K, and is looking at around 50K. After tax this comes to around 30K/year (don't quote me on this number), which will be enough to live if you're single, for more costs of living you can check numbeo.com

Re: On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs nets a higher return

#187

Post by rsp1984 »

This whole discussion is very US-centric.

When looking beyond US borders it turns out you can have it both ways: Get a degree from a very good university without paying tuition fees (or at least not much).

For example in Germany international students can study basically for free. It's similar in other EU countries and the universities are typically much better than US state universities. I truly wonder why not more Americans are taking advantage of this.

Re: On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs nets a higher return

#188

Post by ryanx435 »

alkonaut wrote: post #167
rhino369 wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What about... offering college for free like the rest of the modern world? Paying for tution with tax money doesn't make it free. If you aren't willing to invest in yourself, why should society do so? Free college tuition is a waste of resources on the upper middle class.

Doesn't that argument extend to mean that the public shouldn't fund any education? I mean what's the difference between the first ~12 years of school vs the last 2-5? Is the difference that the people are adults and no longer children (and so can be said to be responsible for themselves)?

The first 12 years is general knowledge: how to interact, read, write, basic knowledge, etc. Also has the purpose of acting as a binding agent for the local community: children make friends, join teams/clubs, etc.

College / university is specialized knowledge that is typically used for career and social status advancement. Its helpful and has utility, but it's not necessarily required to be a functioning adult that lives in and contributes to society

Re: On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs nets a higher return

#189

Post by kem »

krakensden wrote: post #46

As a culture, we really need to stop telling 17 year olds to not worry about money, go to college, and figure something out. There is always someone ready with a romantic appeal to a classical education, and it is so frustrating for me. Wasting four years is a huge cost. Years, decades of debt is a huge cost. Going to college with no plan about money? The costs are assured. Plus, the degrees people are actually getti…

Your comment about business administration threw me for a loop--I couldn't tell if you were being sarcastic or not anymore.

These sorts of articles always strike me as naive, and the discussions sort of disingenuous.

I'll go along with this thought experiment when I see places stop requiring MBAs of administrators just 'cause (one of the most useless degrees in my opinion), when medical professionals don't need a license to practice, and when companies actually stop looking at degrees when hiring individuals, instead of the exceptions to the rule you always see on the internet ("hey, I hire for my company, and I don't pay attention to degrees. Great. You're like 1/100).

Put aside all the unrealistic assumptions being made, that others are posting, such as that money will just fall from the sky to invest, or that 7% annualized return is actually a value that people can count on.

It's still ignoring questions like: will I be able to do what I want just teaching myself? Could I get hired as a civil engineer? For every one of these articles, there's another talking about how comp sci graduates are just better prepared for software development, etc. on average than people from other majors who are self-taught.

It's funny to me that these statistics and discussions ignore grad school, when a prereq for grad school is going to undergrad.

Believe me, I wish everyone would go along with what someone is capable of rather than what their degree rubber stamps (that is, after all, for all the jokes made, the premise of a liberal arts degree--that you don't need to specialize in school to have any given skill in real life). It would be better in so many ways. But society is more superficial than we let on.

Re: On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs nets a higher return

#190

Post by chasing »

krakensden wrote: post #46

As a culture, we really need to stop telling 17 year olds to not worry about money, go to college, and figure something out. There is always someone ready with a romantic appeal to a classical education, and it is so frustrating for me. Wasting four years is a huge cost. Years, decades of debt is a huge cost. Going to college with no plan about money? The costs are assured. Plus, the degrees people are actually getti…

You're right that young people need to understand the costs of going to college and make an educated decision about whether spending the time and money on a four-year degree in their field of interest is worth it. If you're goal is to become a doctor, you may not have a choice. If you want to become a painter, maybe you don't need the extra burden of debt.

I think you're misguided about the value of a liberal arts education, though. I wish more people had exposure to philosophy, history, and literature classes with teachers with the ability to really illuminate these subjects. Money is important, of course. But then there's becoming a good and thoughtful person. A smartly chosen educational program can help young people with both. (Apologies if you find my attitude frustrating.)

(Also, "college is only about money" feels like a variant of "a company should only care about the shareholders." Well, maybe. But that's also an incredibly reductionistic view that can lead people to think of money and only money as the sole reason to pursue an endeavor. I think there are many, many other ways something can be valuable.)

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