On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs nets a higher return • Hacker News Board

Re: On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs nets a higher return

#111

Post by salesguy222 » Sun, Jun 04, 2017, 10:06 PM UTC

staticelf wrote: post #47

krakensden wrote: post #46

As a culture, we really need to stop telling 17 year olds to not worry about money, go to college, and figure something out. There is always someone ready with a romantic appeal to a classical education, and it is so frustrating for me. Wasting four years is a huge cost. Years, decades of debt is a huge cost. Going to college with no plan about money? The costs are assured. Plus, the degrees people are actually getti…

What about... offering college for free like the rest of the modern world? Then you would only have to worry about living costs and those loans are pretty small. I could pay off mine in like 4-5 years if I really wanted to. Plus, then people still could get an education even if their parents didn't save up for you. What about as a society/culture you start telling people that the country should offer education for fr…

Nothing is free in life except sunlight.

Colleges employ people and build buildings and have ongoing costs. Taxpayer money would need to be used to pay for this, and that money must have continued value, otherwise no amount of money would actually get the job done (see Venezuela)

Not everyone learns valuable skills at college. You have to watch out for conflating "learning valuable skills" with "occupying space on a college campus."

Re: On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs nets a higher return

#112

Post by mncolinlee » Sun, Jun 04, 2017, 10:06 PM UTC

We should have a system more like what Thomas Paine advocated. The system he described sounds like Social Security, except it's not limited to retirees. He suggested that everyone 21 years old was due a "natural inheritance" for having been dispossessed of land and property which would offer a chance to succeed. Likewise, America should have scholarships available for anyone willing to work hard and learn. If college were free, ROI would be very high indeed.

https://www.ssa.gov/history/tpaine3.html

Re: On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs nets a higher return

#113

Post by rhino369 » Sun, Jun 04, 2017, 10:06 PM UTC

staticelf wrote: post #47

krakensden wrote: post #46

As a culture, we really need to stop telling 17 year olds to not worry about money, go to college, and figure something out. There is always someone ready with a romantic appeal to a classical education, and it is so frustrating for me. Wasting four years is a huge cost. Years, decades of debt is a huge cost. Going to college with no plan about money? The costs are assured. Plus, the degrees people are actually getti…

What about... offering college for free like the rest of the modern world? Then you would only have to worry about living costs and those loans are pretty small. I could pay off mine in like 4-5 years if I really wanted to. Plus, then people still could get an education even if their parents didn't save up for you. What about as a society/culture you start telling people that the country should offer education for fr…

>What about... offering college for free like the rest of the modern world?

Paying for tution with tax money doesn't make it free. If you aren't willing to invest in yourself, why should society do so?

Free college tuition is a waste of resources on the upper middle class.

Re: On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs nets a higher return

#114

Post by aaron-lebo » Sun, Jun 04, 2017, 10:06 PM UTC

yequalsx wrote: post #110

aaron-lebo wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The top paid coach there is Nick Saban; Alabama football made over $100 million in revenue last year. https://www.seccountry.com/alabama/alabama-football-reported...

Does that include cost of building the stadium? The gyms? I don't think it does.

The stadium has been there since 1929, so presumably.

Upkeep is not $50 million.

Re: On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs nets a higher return

#115

Post by ant6n » Sun, Jun 04, 2017, 10:06 PM UTC

mncolinlee wrote: post #73

staticelf wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about... offering college for free like the rest of the modern world? Then you would only have to worry about living costs and those loans are pretty small. I could pay off mine in like 4-5 years if I really wanted to. Plus, then people still could get an education even if their parents didn't save up for you. What about as a society/culture you start telling people that the country should offer education for fr…

We already provide free college to the best performing students and those students very likely achieve much higher ROI. I benefitted from a four-year tuition, room, and board scholarship from my college, as did my brother and sister from theirs. However, only a fraction of a percent receives academic scholarships and a good portion of scholarships go to star athletes instead. The German system is nearly comparable. O…

In Germany, about 1/3 of students finish with a High School degree that allows them to go to University (https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/235973/umfrag...)

Re: On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs nets a higher return

#116

Post by aianus » Sun, Jun 04, 2017, 10:06 PM UTC

eqmvii wrote: post #45

twic wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the kicker. Similarly, the stock market outperforms property on the regular, but banks won't lend you hundreds of thousands of beans to get involved in the stock market, when they'll fall over themselves to give you a mortgage.

Because repossessing property is (statistically speaking) more likely to work out for the bank than repossessing whatever random stocks an investor decided were a sure thing. That's why margin accounts aren't available to everyone, and margin calls kick in to protect the investment firm before total loss. Housing is volatile, but stocks are significantly more so, and with significantly more near-total losses over tim…

You have this exactly backwards.

Stocks are much easier to repossess and liquidate during a margin call which results in margin interest being lower than mortgage interest. You can't get as much leverage as you can with real estate but that's because of government regulation not because banks are unwilling.

Re: On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs nets a higher return

#117

Post by pmiller2 » Sun, Jun 04, 2017, 10:07 PM UTC

imesh wrote: post #54

staticelf wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about... offering college for free like the rest of the modern world? Then you would only have to worry about living costs and those loans are pretty small. I could pay off mine in like 4-5 years if I really wanted to. Plus, then people still could get an education even if their parents didn't save up for you. What about as a society/culture you start telling people that the country should offer education for fr…

Education in America is cheap, the problem is people don't go to their local school, they see college as an experience where they travel halfway across the country and stay in student housing.

My "local school" when I was an undergrad now would cost me $30k/year to attend. Even assuming only 2 years (because the first 2 were spent at a community college, and all the credits magically transferred), that's over $60k. My parents never spent $60k on anything that didn't have a foundation and a roof.

Re: On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs nets a higher return

#118

Post by aianus » Sun, Jun 04, 2017, 10:07 PM UTC

kelnos wrote: post #85

eqmvii wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because repossessing property is (statistically speaking) more likely to work out for the bank than repossessing whatever random stocks an investor decided were a sure thing. That's why margin accounts aren't available to everyone, and margin calls kick in to protect the investment firm before total loss. Housing is volatile, but stocks are significantly more so, and with significantly more near-total losses over tim…

In addition to that, the bank knows what they get back if you default on your loan: your house. If you want to invest in the market, the bank has no idea what stocks or funds you'll be investing in, and can't even remotely guess at what they'll get back if you default.

When you borrow money to invest in stocks the stocks are in an account that the bank can seize when the net value is low enough. It's much much easier to repossess than an illiquid house.

Re: On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs nets a higher return

#119

Post by lazaroclapp » Sun, Jun 04, 2017, 10:08 PM UTC

staticelf wrote: post #58

pokemongoaway wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're arguing that everyone should pay for it and go to it until we make it free? Why can't we argue using the reality college tuition payers have today? Instead of arguing from a fairy tale reality for high tuition payers...

I think the best solution for individuals in the US is to move to an european country, stay there and work until you get some kind of permenant stay visa or citizenship so you can enter college for free. That usually do not take long for americans. If you have kids you can do it when they're small so they are ready for university when they come of age.

Hell, a few countries will provide tuition free education for foreign nationals too. The challenge is that Americans interested in that will have to prepare the corresponding entrance exams instead or in addition to SATs and have sufficient language proficiency.

I knew students back in Mexico preparing for their Abitur exams for Germany at the end of high school (in all fairness, they were coming from bilingual private high school, which is a extreme luxury in Mexico, but still way below what college tuition in the U.S. looks like at most research universities...).

Re: On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs nets a higher return

#120

Post by maxerickson » Sun, Jun 04, 2017, 10:08 PM UTC

jrs95 wrote: post #67

chillwaves wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the argument is society reaps the benefit of an educated populace, secondly yes, everyone should pay for qualified individuals to go to college, as most or much of the civilized world does. That does not mean free college for everyone. There would still be a stringent entrance exam. It means free college for those who are qualified. Contrast that to the system now where college is seen as just another marketi…

But is the benefit society gets from a college educated populace really worth the cost? I feel like there are a decent number of degree programs which we would never get a return on our investment for subsidizing, so making it free for studying any topic seems foolish. Plus, job specific training could be just as good or better than a 4 year degree in many cases, and that would take far less time and be much cheaper.

Yes, the goal should be to offer university as an option to already well educated 17 year olds.

(rather than the creeping credentialism we choose now)