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Too many people are buying cars using financial products they do not understand

timharford.com

91–100 of 330 posts

Re: Too many people are buying cars using financial products they do not understand

#91

I was under the impression that the whole point of auto-financing was to get even even more money out of the consumer. When I bought my last car, I just bought it outright (because it wasn't particularly expensive) which appeared to baffle the dealership. I was actually a little concerned that the dealership told me it was the largest check they'd ever seen (for ~$14k). Getting people to sign off on a contract they d…

Same thing here in Norway. When I bought my last car, I negotiated the price down quite a bit and got upgrades/winter tires etc for the same price.

When all was said and done and he asked how I wanted to finance it, I pulled out my direct debit and he went pale.

I had to argue for another half an hour to keep all the negotiated stuff while paying for it outright, it was silly.

Re: Too many people are buying cars using financial products they do not understand

#92
post #66
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody was made to buy a home they couldn't afford. They wanted it, and someone was willing to sell it to them at near-predatory rates. Nobody had a gun held to their head to sign a contract.

Look nobody makes you buy anything. But RE is different in that the market isn't completely rational. Your options are rent, own, or sleep in your car. When I was out visiting a town in the Midwest you couldn't rent. There were no houses for rent. Even if a developer started a multi unit rental right now it would still be 6-9 months until it was rentable.

>nobody makes you buy anything //

But companies spend vast amounts of their revenue to manipulate you in to doing so, or perhaps you haven't heard of advertising?

Re: Too many people are buying cars using financial products they do not understand

#93

I was under the impression that the whole point of auto-financing was to get even even more money out of the consumer. When I bought my last car, I just bought it outright (because it wasn't particularly expensive) which appeared to baffle the dealership. I was actually a little concerned that the dealership told me it was the largest check they'd ever seen (for ~$14k). Getting people to sign off on a contract they d…

Almost no one pays cash for a car anymore and the industry knows this. Many dealerships make more money (or at least they did, but I'm sure they still do) from getting people to get a loan from one of their "partners" (auto-loan companies which accept their paper). It's been years since I worked for an auto-finance company (my soul still feels a little dirty), but I know it wasn't uncommon for dealerships to get an additional 1-2% from the loan. This gets complicated as far as how much they earn per car, because there were also penalties for loans they sold that defaulted before a certain point etc. In the end it worked out in their favor though hence why they kept using certain loan places. This is why you hear people tell you always negotiate the price of the car before you tell them you have your own financing (either cash or through your bank), because they'll drop the price a little more knowing they will make it back. Don't ever think they're working to get you the best deal possible either, they'll either give you the first response they get back, or the one that nets them the most money if multiple ones come back at the same time. The faster they get you to sign, the faster they get paid.

(I also really hate to say this, but if you're female and don't like confrontation, bring a male friend and act like he's the one buying the car. It's a male dominated industry that is very sexist. If you're a strong person and can handle it by all means go for it, but expect them to be pushy and talk down to you. I'm a white male, and I hate dealing with a lot of them. I can't imagine, although I've heard the stories, of what it's like not being in the privileged class.)

The real truth is that to the dealership, this additional money doesn't really matter in the big picture. They make almost no money from selling cars. You ever notice how all the dealerships have a service department? That's not by coincidence. It used to be (and probably is still close) that 90% of all revenue from a dealership is on service. Getting money from warranties; getting money from people who only trust where they bought it etc. They want to sell the car, so they can get the maintenance. They won't sell for a loss, and they'll take you for what they can, but really they're in it for you as the long term support. Also, the car salesperson has no real influence over the price you get. That comes from the general manager behind the desk. (A long time ago this didn't used to be true, but dealerships wised up that you don't trust people on commission making decisions. It's quite possible the sales people don't actually know the true cost of the car to the dealership.)

You want to hear about people signing things they don't understand? I really wanted to scream at people after I heard this story. There was a hispanic couple looking to buy a car and they didn't really understand English. The car salesman told them if they signed the contract, they could drive the car as much as they wanted. He neglected to mention to they actually had to pay for the car, and so they took the deal. You can guess how that worked out. Course the salesman didn't care; he got his commission. I'm not saying they're all like this, but some of them are complete trash.

Re: Too many people are buying cars using financial products they do not understand

#94
post #43

I think it may be easy to buy a relatively bad PCP deal, because of the difficulty in comparing like for like when there's a lot of variables in the deal. But I'm not sure that PCP is often a bad deal compared with outright purchase (whether on finance or not), because it creates a lot of certainty, particularly with good gap insurance, and doesn't require a lot of capital.

PCP should be the best way to purchase, just like leases should be. You just pay depreciation/cost of ownership/cost of financing, and don't have to worry about getting out of the car when you want a new one.

But like leases, it sounds like the problem with the PCP is the financial complexity. The option at the end of a lease has actual value, and it's difficult for a consumer to value it properly. The interest being charged is also hidden, making it easy to hit you with a far higher rate.

If you could buy a car on a PCP where the finance costs and end contract purchase price were reasonable and market competitive, it might be great. After all, a car shouldn't always be a forced savings plan where you are required to own it after 4 or 5 years.

Re: Too many people are buying cars using financial products they do not understand

#95
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to buy cars with cash. But right now car loans are so cheap, if you have good credit, it may make more sense to take the loan and keep the cash invested. I think my current rate is 2% or so... an unthinkable rate not so many years ago.

When I bought a Honda many years ago, they were offering 1% financing. At the same time, Toyota was doing 0% financing. I don't know how they make a profit on it, but why wouldn't you get a 0% finance deal over paying in full? I think the main benefit of paying upfront is to buy a used car.

Those incentives are there to keep the cash flow going. The car market is seasonally cyclical, but manufacturing is most efficient in a steady state. Those deals are there to keep the pipeline full.

Re: Too many people are buying cars using financial products they do not understand

#96
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, they were making money by selling the loan. Bundle up plenty of these small loans that are relatively safe with a few that are not, and you have a financial package that can be worth a lot of money. Edit:. I meant to have an "also" in my first sentence.

Not if the auto loan is say 5 years and they're offering 1.5% financing. The 5 year treasury rate is currently 1.76%. So they're losing 26bp of yield for taking on (the albeit limited levels of and partially diversified away) the credit risk?

The manufacturer is subsidizing the interest. It's 1.5% + cash payment.

Re: Too many people are buying cars using financial products they do not understand

#97
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to buy cars with cash. But right now car loans are so cheap, if you have good credit, it may make more sense to take the loan and keep the cash invested. I think my current rate is 2% or so... an unthinkable rate not so many years ago.

When I bought a Honda many years ago, they were offering 1% financing. At the same time, Toyota was doing 0% financing. I don't know how they make a profit on it, but why wouldn't you get a 0% finance deal over paying in full? I think the main benefit of paying upfront is to buy a used car.

> why wouldn't you get a 0% finance deal over paying in full?

Less stress? You pay money, the car is yours, problem solved. One thing less to worry about.

Re: Too many people are buying cars using financial products they do not understand

#98
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to buy cars with cash. But right now car loans are so cheap, if you have good credit, it may make more sense to take the loan and keep the cash invested. I think my current rate is 2% or so... an unthinkable rate not so many years ago.

When I bought a Honda many years ago, they were offering 1% financing. At the same time, Toyota was doing 0% financing. I don't know how they make a profit on it, but why wouldn't you get a 0% finance deal over paying in full? I think the main benefit of paying upfront is to buy a used car.

I bought 0% Apr from Toyota. It's not really 0% though, because (at least in my case if I would pay cash, I would get $1,000 off). So this is equivalent of paying $1,000 of interest up front, just masked to look like there is no interest.

Re: Too many people are buying cars using financial products they do not understand

#99

Maybe I didn't understand the deal I bought a car with, or maybe it's an unusual deal, but I'm happy with it. My car costs me a set amount per month that I can afford, an amount that is actually equal to the monthly depreciation it would face anyway (on average) over a three year period (including the initial low value deposit I paid, this is still true). Even if I bought it outright, which I couldn't afford to do, I…

Are you keeping an eye on your mileage? Some people don't, and get stuck with large bills when handing the car back.

Re: Too many people are buying cars using financial products they do not understand

#100
post #91

I was under the impression that the whole point of auto-financing was to get even even more money out of the consumer. When I bought my last car, I just bought it outright (because it wasn't particularly expensive) which appeared to baffle the dealership. I was actually a little concerned that the dealership told me it was the largest check they'd ever seen (for ~$14k). Getting people to sign off on a contract they d…

Same thing here in Norway. When I bought my last car, I negotiated the price down quite a bit and got upgrades/winter tires etc for the same price. When all was said and done and he asked how I wanted to finance it, I pulled out my direct debit and he went pale. I had to argue for another half an hour to keep all the negotiated stuff while paying for it outright, it was silly.

I doubt it was silly. He likely offered you a deal that would have lost money if not for the financing.
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