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Workers involved in union activities say Tesla is illegally intimidating them

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Re: Workers involved in union activities say Tesla is illegally intimidating them

#61
post #47
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As an employee, the union is an organization you belong to which works to further your interests If that were actually true, it would be nice. But I doubt it's true for very many unions. Certainly my past experience in the auto industry indicated that it was not the case for the UAW, which is the union involved in this particular case. > If one side shouldn't band together, why should the other side do so? My perso…

Your "logical conclusion" sounds like the proliferation of third-party suppliers which I understand is now a huge part of the auto industry. Sure, they're companies rather than unions, but my underlying point is that the two aren't particularly different: they're both ways for people to band together and get better deals collectively than they would individually. In any case, I'm not saying unions should do this or t…

> the proliferation of third-party suppliers which I understand is now a huge part of the auto industry

Yes, it is, even more so now then when I was working in the industry. But that's something different from what I'm talking about. At each of the factories run by those third-party suppliers, the workers are employees of the supplier company. (And many of those factories are also unionized under the UAW.) Similarly, at the assembly plants where finished vehicles are put together from the parts from all of those third-party suppliers, the workers are employees of the auto company (GM or Ford or Toyota or whomever), and (mostly) unionized under the UAW. (AFAIK that's true of all the plants of the US auto companies, but some foreign ones, like Toyota, have US plants that are not unionized.)

What I'm describing is something different: a factory belonging to GM or Ford or whomever, but staffed by workers (and supervisors up to whatever level seems appropriate) who are employees of, say, the Auto Workers' Company (AWC), which is a full-fledged, for-profit corporation that specializes in representing and managing automotive factory workers. That company negotiates a contract with the company that owns the factory and supplies it with raw materials and ships out its finished products, just like any other contract between companies. The contract specifies what jobs the workers are to do and under what conditions, and the factory owner pays the AWC for the services it provides according to whatever payment terms are in the contract. The AWC then pays the workers, since they are its employees.

> It looks to me like people decry unions based on things that are not unique to them, but give companies a free pass.

I don't see companies getting a free pass, but I also think that, to the extent that unions get decried more than companies, it's because unions combine the worst features of companies and democracies:

- Unions have a corporate command structure (they have officers, finances, etc.), but it's subject to democratic rule (members vote on the leadership). Thus, the leadership has a long-term mission (to sustain the viability of the labor pool), but a short-term focus.

- Unions have, or at least try to have, monopoly power. This means that the actual benefits they can provide from collective action (which is what makes it more sensible for them to be corporations) are more than swallowed up in the deadweight losses associated with having the monopoly (which is demanded by the membership for the same reasons people in a democracy demand government benefits).

Re: Workers involved in union activities say Tesla is illegally intimidating them

#62
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In some cases, these teachers have openly abused students, but it is very hard to prove such cases even though there is proof (some level of irony applies here). Here in Maine, we either don't have a teachers union, or it is not a problematic cancer like it is in California and New York, and we still have problems firing toxic teachers that have actively harmed students.

That whole 'due process' thing sucks.

In a way it does.

Due process should be carried out in a way independent of involved parties; ie, it doesn't matter if the union strikes, cases involving abuse of students or other similar misconduct should be heard by a court or other legal body independent of the school system.

As in, the school should not have the authority to fire or punish teachers inside of its structure, and needs to be outside of the influence of both the schools and the unions to maintain fairness and safety.

If you did the crime, you do the time, no matter if it even results in the union striking for the entirety of your prison sentence.

Re: Workers involved in union activities say Tesla is illegally intimidating them

#63
post #23

If collective bargaining wasn't mandatory, and employers were free to decide who to hire and fire, the manufacturing sector in the US would be vastly larger, and offer millions more jobs to Americans. There is very little that does more damage to society than the so-called labour movement.

Do you think there is some historical example we could refer to to see what it would look like if we had industrial capitalism with no labor rights whatsoever?

The chinese coal industry?

http://www.jpma.org.pk/full_article_text.php?article_id=1811

Re: Workers involved in union activities say Tesla is illegally intimidating them

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the major appeal of the union is that you can't get fired or laid off. This type of job security is crucial because it gives you massive leverage when it comes to fighting for those other things. No matter how good the pay is, you can probably get better via striking, etc.

No one choose a job based on the union. How many unions in the private market can really claim you wont get fired.

>> No one choose a job based on the union.

Unfortunately, that's an overreaching statement. I personally know a few people who have accepted pay cuts to leverage the type of job security afforded by certain unions.

>> How many unions in the private market can really claim you wont get fired.

Certainly none, but does it really matter? There's exists a threshold where the difference between won't get fired and very difficult to get fired are pragmatically indistinguishable.

Re: Workers involved in union activities say Tesla is illegally intimidating them

#65
post #21

I think a union is something you earn - not something foisted upon you. If you dont want workers to join a union, treat them well, pay them significantly above market rates, give good benefits.

the major appeal of the union is that you can't get fired or laid off. This type of job security is crucial because it gives you massive leverage when it comes to fighting for those other things. No matter how good the pay is, you can probably get better via striking, etc.

Do unions work differently in the US? Because I am pretty sure that while you can't get fired for being in a union (or strike action), you can get fired for every other reason you could get fired for.

Re: Workers involved in union activities say Tesla is illegally intimidating them

#66
post #2

Unions annoy me. Working conditions 75 years ago were truly deadly, and unions served a major purpose to humanize the work force. Nowadays we have "tax the robots" bills being sponsored by Unions and people somehow think it's "ok" to force someone to join a union to feed their family. When I see articles like this, I know what the right answer is but it's hard to empathetic at the same time.

Criticisms of existing unions might be valid, but you seem to be attacking the very concept.

Most of us are forced to sell our labour or starve. Therefore the labour market can not be a free and fair market. Having unions and collective bargaining makes it a more efficient and fair market.

Otherwise, unless you are one of very few workers (who are over-represented on HN) that have considerable power in the job market, you will get shafted.

Re: Workers involved in union activities say Tesla is illegally intimidating them

#67
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Collective bargaining is never mandatory on the employee side. The employee is not forced to work for a particular collective. The employer on the otherhand is forced, by law, to only hire people who are part of some government-recognized collective, known as a bargaining unit. In other words, employees can monopolize the employer's hiring options, using anti-free-market laws inspired by the 'labour' movement and soc…

That's not how unions work in the US.

Feel free to enlighten us anytime.

The parent has accurately described my experience, and I'm in the US.

Re: Workers involved in union activities say Tesla is illegally intimidating them

#68
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The relationship between you as an employee and employer is totally different than you and a (potential) union. The one is paying you a salary for certain work done. The other is to (potentially) help you to negotiate better working conditions. You are absolutely making no sense at all.

> The one is paying you a salary for certain work done. The other is to (potentially) help you to negotiate better working conditions That's like saying that the role of elected officials is to represent their constituents and serve their interests, treating them all with full equality under the law. It's a nice statement, but it's completely idealistic and doesn't accurately describe what actually happens in practic…

wtf? You work for a salary and you join a union if you want better working conditions and believe that is the only way to get it. This is not rocket science. What does politics have to do with it?

Re: Workers involved in union activities say Tesla is illegally intimidating them

#69
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why can't people organize themselves if they want to? That's fine, don't force people to organize and pay "dues".

At some point the majority of workers voted to organize. After that, anyone working there has made the choice to work a unionized job. I don't think it is fair to allow a single jobseeker to break the structure of a union this way. Why not consider asking these individuals to choose to work a different job if they object to paying union dues? In general, there's an information asymmetry between workers and employers…

> I don't think it is fair to allow a single jobseeker to break the structure of a union this way

So it's fair to force them to put part of their paycheck towards something they have no interest in using? That's neither ethical nor fair.

Re: Workers involved in union activities say Tesla is illegally intimidating them

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one choose a job based on the union. How many unions in the private market can really claim you wont get fired.

>> No one choose a job based on the union. Unfortunately, that's an overreaching statement. I personally know a few people who have accepted pay cuts to leverage the type of job security afforded by certain unions. >> How many unions in the private market can really claim you wont get fired. Certainly none, but does it really matter? There's exists a threshold where the difference between won't get fired and very dif…

So was the one I was responding to. And I doubt that whatever personal anecdotes you have can be applied to unions in general as parent did.

And yes it matters as the parent wanted to dismiss unions based on these false claims.

Unions are neither good nor bad. Some of them have too much power, others have too little. Some should have a union (like uber drivers) etc.

My own father tried to start a kind of union for a group of self-employed drivers working for one company. The result was that the company he worked for simply stopped his contract and scared everyone else off from backing him and a few others up.

I have seen unions be both really bad, really good, unnecessary and not existing where they should.

They are no different than consumer interest groups and other collections of people trying to reach some sort of balance.

In many industries today they aren't needed but in some they still are.

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