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The Slow Criminalization of Peer-To-Peer Transfers

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Re: The Slow Criminalization of Peer-To-Peer Transfers

#91

Post by csomar »

dwaltrip wrote: post #86
oska wrote: post #85

A little bit of background about this site (bitcoin.com). This site is owned by a very controversial figure in the bitcoin world (Roger Ver). Many people feel his use of the domain is unethical, as the URL looks like an official voice for bitcoin when it is far from it. Satoshi Nakamoto (bitcoin's creator) registered the bitcoin.org site to present information on bitcoin, with the .org domain reflecting the open sour…

Roger Ver isn't an angel, but the core developers are far from deserving uncritical respect. They've failed for 3+ years to implement any of the dozens of proposed scaling improvements.

This is a very political comment. The Core developers are free to do what they want. The software is open source and running it is the choice of the users. The Core developers are not compelled by any means to do any implementation even if the majority of users, exchanges and investors want it.

Re: The Slow Criminalization of Peer-To-Peer Transfers

#92

Post by csomar »

barrkel wrote: post #62
Houshalter wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are right that they are treating it similarly to cash. The problem is that our society is slowly criminalizing cash as well. If cops catch you with a large amount of cash, they can just take it with no recourse. It's assumed to be for criminal activity, since why else would anyone transport cash? Using cash is increasingly seen as suspicious and possibly criminal behavior. If you deposit a large amount of cash it…

Before you run away with your paranoid hat on, think about it the other way around: voters want something done about organized crime, and politicians look for the easy wins. Since large untraceable cash transactions are almost always criminal in nature, it makes sense to lower the weight of evidence required to seize unusually large amounts of cash. And frankly, I'm fairly comfortable with that. It'll never affect me…

I'm suspicious the large criminal operations are using cash (or crypto). They are probably using Banks, Politicians and Regulators. These laws are meant to control the simple citizen, or the smaller criminal operations.

Re: The Slow Criminalization of Peer-To-Peer Transfers

#93

Post by Kiro »

Jabanga wrote: post #28
ouid wrote: post #2

The value of bitcoin was always to evade taxes and launder money, both of which are criminal enterprises, the only thing that is changing is enforcement.

Peer-to-peer electronic cash has numerous uses beyond tax evasion and money laundering, just as physical cash does. But to your point, even these laws are part of a new trend. Money laundering is a relatively new crime, and widespread taxation of private transactions only came into force in the early 20th century, with governments around the world instituting income taxation. 50 years ago, almost all transactions wer…

> Peer-to-peer electronic cash has numerous uses beyond tax evasion and money laundering

What are the biggest ones? I don't see any point of physical cash personally but I'm in a country where no-one uses it.

Re: The Slow Criminalization of Peer-To-Peer Transfers

#94

Post by csomar »

dllthomas wrote: post #55
cgb223 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would one launder money with bitcoin? What would that look like?

Buy bitcoin, put in mixer, use it to pay for accounts from your "legitimate" SaaS product.

Through virtual credit card numbers you charged from crypto.

Re: The Slow Criminalization of Peer-To-Peer Transfers

#95

Post by Kiro »

dhfhduk wrote: post #8
ouid wrote: post #2

The value of bitcoin was always to evade taxes and launder money, both of which are criminal enterprises, the only thing that is changing is enforcement.

I don't agree with the idea that the value of bitcoin was always to evade taxes and launder money. Maybe that's a primary motive for many, but I don't think that constitutes the value of bitcoin in toto. I have no skin in the bitcoin game--I've never possessed any bitcoin and don't feel any burning desire to in the near future. As monetary transactions have moved to the electronic sphere, there's been an important sh…

> Bitcoin and other cryptocurrency tries to get back to the idea of peer-to-peer financial exchange without needing that third party

What's the benefit? I suppose it becomes faster but seeing that Bitcoin transfers takes hours to verify currently I don't know if that's an argument.

Re: The Slow Criminalization of Peer-To-Peer Transfers

#96

Post by Kiro »

Mendenhall wrote: post #9
ouid wrote: post #2

The value of bitcoin was always to evade taxes and launder money, both of which are criminal enterprises, the only thing that is changing is enforcement.

While I am sure those reasons play a part I think thats not even close to all of what makes it valuable. Ease of use is a huge one. I can set up a wallet in less than a minute and someone from across the world can send me bitcoin in the time it takes for it to clear the block, other cryptos even faster. One can post their wallet address and make jokes on social media and receive bitcoin just because people like the c…

Still, are those benefits really worth it? Seems pretty minor to me but maybe I fail to see the bigger picture. Sounds like these things can be achieved easily with traditional money as well (like how it works in South Korea, where the social tipping you speak of is very popular). How are states supposed to collect taxes if they can't see anything?

Re: The Slow Criminalization of Peer-To-Peer Transfers

#97

Post by Kiro »

georgeecollins wrote: post #25
ouid wrote: post #2

The value of bitcoin was always to evade taxes and launder money, both of which are criminal enterprises, the only thing that is changing is enforcement.

There are all kinds of legal and legitimate reasons to pay for something in a way that isn't easily tracked. You can do it now with cash and it isn't illegal. Just because you want privacy does not mean you are a criminal.

Do you have any examples of those?

Re: The Slow Criminalization of Peer-To-Peer Transfers

#98

Post by csomar »

ajmurmann wrote: post #56
mirimir wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The last step doesn't work. I mean, you might as well declare the cash as income. You'd be pressed to explain where either came from. More useful would be to buy Bitcoin with cash, mix, and then invest assets somewhere anonymously. But it's a hard problem, because wherever assets appear in meatspace, there's typically the need to explain their origin. That's where many people get caught. Such as Tomáš Jiříkovský of S…

The problem actually seems worse on the Bitcoin side to new than in meat space. Someone might have a Saas business that receives a lot of payments in BTC. Interestingly there isn't all that much traffic. You know like in mani pedi salons that make surprising amounts of money despite never being really packed. It's harder to notice that with a Saas business especially if the logs aren't kept for long. However, it woul…

You can create credit cards on the fly and charge them with bitcoin. Another possible action is to use the money for advertising, product development, etc... and build a somewhat legitimate business. The business might not be quite profitable but that's the price you pay for laundering?

Re: The Slow Criminalization of Peer-To-Peer Transfers

#99

Post by timow1337 »

oska wrote: post #85

A little bit of background about this site (bitcoin.com). This site is owned by a very controversial figure in the bitcoin world (Roger Ver). Many people feel his use of the domain is unethical, as the URL looks like an official voice for bitcoin when it is far from it. Satoshi Nakamoto (bitcoin's creator) registered the bitcoin.org site to present information on bitcoin, with the .org domain reflecting the open sour…

Satoshi Nakamoto also intended for the block sizes to go up after an amount of time, yet the bitcoin core team isn't willing to upgrade and tries to promote their own agenda (blockstream).

Re: The Slow Criminalization of Peer-To-Peer Transfers

#100

Post by michaelmrose »

barrkel wrote: post #62
Houshalter wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are right that they are treating it similarly to cash. The problem is that our society is slowly criminalizing cash as well. If cops catch you with a large amount of cash, they can just take it with no recourse. It's assumed to be for criminal activity, since why else would anyone transport cash? Using cash is increasingly seen as suspicious and possibly criminal behavior. If you deposit a large amount of cash it…

Before you run away with your paranoid hat on, think about it the other way around: voters want something done about organized crime, and politicians look for the easy wins. Since large untraceable cash transactions are almost always criminal in nature, it makes sense to lower the weight of evidence required to seize unusually large amounts of cash. And frankly, I'm fairly comfortable with that. It'll never affect me…

There is a simpler solution make it impossible to seize assets of any variety without getting a conviction first.

If you can't prove a crime you have no business seizing anyone's assets. Innocent until proven guilty is a thing.

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