Live data from Hacker News

An alarm about the influence of standardized tests on American society

scientificamerican.com

161–170 of 198 posts

Re: An alarm about the influence of standardized tests on American society

#161
post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope. Some classes are weighted higher to prevent this.

I don't remember my high school report card having a difficulty rating on the class. I would be very interested in data on the number of high schools that do this weighting.

When I was in high school in the Dallas area, AP classes were all weighted one-step-up-the-scale. A's were 5, B's were 4, etc.

I forget the max GPA in our class, it was somewhere between 4 and 5, but I don't think it was the theoretical max you could get if you took as many AP classes as possible and got A's in all of them.

Colleges weren't stupid about it, either, though. My brother had a lower GPA since he went to a smaller school with very few AP classes available, but did better relative to that curriculum than I did relevant to mine's, and he got more scholarship offers and quicker admission offers at the schools we both applied to. Even though my SAT was 10 points higher.

Re: An alarm about the influence of standardized tests on American society

#162
post #18

As a high school student I find the hating on the SAT/ACT a little concerning, since once you remove standardized testing, admissions is primarily based on GPA(which imo has massive flaws the most important flaw being lack of consistency across schools). Also this article doesn't sound all that "scientific" to me.

honestly it seems to me that many that bash them are just insecure they didn't do well and therefore claim that it isn't a valid measure.

There studies that seem legitimate that have found that a certain amount of prep can boost your score multiple tens of points.

This is problematic if you want it to be a valid measure because it lets people artificially close the gap.

Do you want the student with such a well-rounded education throughout their life that they got a >=99.9% score without needing to study, or the one who caught up by grinding for a few weeks without that same broad underlying fundamental base? If your test can't tell that apart, it's flawed, because access to the right prep is going to become a significant part of what you're measuring, and that access is (for obvious economic reasons) distributed along unequal lines, reinforcing the already-fortunate.

My suspicion, since I doubt we can come up with a test to prep, is that the best answer is either (a) nobody preps or (b) everyone gets access to a lot of prep. The former seems impossible to enforce, plus is the sort of "individual liberty"-constraining thing that the politically dominant swathes of America hate. They want to be able to make their kids the best, they "earned it." The latter would be easier, but isn't without some complications, and of course is time that could be better spent on something other than maximizing a single metric.

Re: An alarm about the influence of standardized tests on American society

#163
There is an extraordinarily dangerous subtext to this argument and it isn't very well hidden.

>Wisdom is about using your abilities and knowledge not just for your own selfish ends and for people like you. It’s about using them to help achieve a common good by balancing your own interests with other people’s and with high-order interests through the infusion of positive ethical values.

The author is essentially arguing that "intelligence" should be redefined to include not only practical problem-solving abilities, but a specific set of moral values. He is arguing that it is acceptable to reject an otherwise excellent college candidate because they're a nihilist or an objectivist or a nationalist, so by his standards are "unwise" or "lacking in ethical intelligence".

Right now, America is in the midst of a vast rebellion against the scientific consensus. Millions of Americans reject essential and well-proven scientific theories, in large part because they believe that academia is a highly politicised liberal institution. They don't believe the data and they don't trust the objectivity of the people who collected it. I very much doubt that making college admission contingent on holding a certain set of ethical beliefs will help to challenge that view.

Conservatives are vastly under-represented in academia and have been for many decades. Many conservative students and academics feel that they are actively discriminated against on an institutional level. Whatever your political beliefs, this should be deeply concerning to you, if only because of the ammunition that it hands to the likes of Trump.

http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674059092

Re: An alarm about the influence of standardized tests on American society

#164

There is an extraordinarily dangerous subtext to this argument and it isn't very well hidden. >Wisdom is about using your abilities and knowledge not just for your own selfish ends and for people like you. It’s about using them to help achieve a common good by balancing your own interests with other people’s and with high-order interests through the infusion of positive ethical values. The author is essentially argui…

I'm with you. Defining wisdom as out-group altruism makes it a sort of zealous, unconsidered enforcement of the status quo.

I think there probably is a case to be made that semantic intelligence at scale harms a society, but this sciam interview doesn't present a good argument.

Re: An alarm about the influence of standardized tests on American society

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like you have an axe to grind, especially since you cite no evidence yourself... How would you measure "less ethical," anyway? Are we more ethical now than 200 years ago or less, in your view? According to Gallup, 91% of Americans in 1948 claimed to be Christian, compared to 69% in 2016. [0] I would assume "formally religious" is tracks similarly. Personally, I think we are less ethical, but since I wasn't aro…

In what way was USA 1948 more ethical than USA 2016? When I think of USA 1948, I think of things like Jim Crow, women requiring their husband's permission to open a bank account, interracial marriage being forbidden, homosexuals staying in the closet for fear of their lives, young men being forced into military service against their will, and lobotomy as standard psychiatric treatment. But, you know, there's occasion…

Unethical doesn't mean "things I don't like."

Re: An alarm about the influence of standardized tests on American society

#166
post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any metric can be gamed. It only works until people figure out how.

The trick is to change your metrics often enough, so people can never be sure they gamed the right one.

"You mean I spent a hundred hours volunteering at the soup kitchen for nothing‽"

Re: An alarm about the influence of standardized tests on American society

#167
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not familiar with the idea that there was a 'postmodern revolution' in education (or even what that would look like?) What changes are you referring to?

The essence of the shift in the postmodern worldview is the belief that truth and virtues are subjective; that communications are fundamentally impossible due to the differences between people; at the same time, teaching and the knowledge of the old are predicated on a mode of oppression. This has largely been laughed off by STEM people, because it is hilariously wrong. Unfortunately, it got into the liberal arts and…

The subjectivity of truth[1] and morality is relativism; focus on oppression and power is an element of critical theory.

Both are regularly conflated with postmodernism, but neither is intrinsically postmodernist - relativism predates it by approximately forever, and (contemporary) critical theory is a child of the postmodernism of the 1980s and 1990s (with origins in the late 1930s).

There are good reasons to be skeptical of both, but it's a gross exaggeration to say that they've "poisoned" the humanities. My experience as a philosophy major has been full of extreme (and deserved) skepticism towards relativism. Critical theory has grown in popularity, but it's nowhere near the boogeyman that many (including my peers in STEM!) seem to make of it.

Individuals vary, of course, but "postmodernism" never took over the liberal arts. It's just another school of thought, and not a particularly popular one at that.

Edit:

[1]: I don't want to give the impression that most (or even any) relativists believe that all truths are relative. This would, again, be a tremendous mischaracterization - most are not interested in challenging empirical truths.

Instead, most relativists are skeptical about the absoluteness of moral truths. I happen to be a (somewhat firm) moral realist, so that's all very silly to me. However, it's the difference between a completely incoherent view (all truths are relative) and a coherent view that I think is probably incorrect (moral truths are not absolute).

Re: An alarm about the influence of standardized tests on American society

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why shouldn't it?

Doing a bunch of stuff in high school is a pretty big indicator that you are from an affluent school and/or an affluent background. The rest of us had after school jobs or chores. Never mind the parents that can arrange those unpaid internships. As to after school clubs, we didn't have any because we didn't have the money to pay teachers to stay around. If a school actually care about the diversity of its students, t…

I'm more impressed with the kid who came from a broken home in a terrible school district who managed to graduate and do well than I am with the kid who had every advantage but was also involved with the student politics and choir (or whatever).

Re: An alarm about the influence of standardized tests on American society

#169
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with these is that they couldn't have been significant enough to make a dent in the outcome. Pretty much all significant achievements are fact-checkable. E.g. you may falsely claim that you were doing karate or basketball, but if you did win any trophies, then most selective schools wouldn't care about you.

You might be surprised. I was on the committee which adjudicated major entrance scholarships for six years, and I can count on my fingers the number of times someone said "can we get some verification of this?" We've never thought that fraud was a common problem, and when you're competing to recruit the top students you really don't want to go back to them and accuse them of dishonesty.. And (although we're revising…

A few years ago, I was mentoring at the local (major!) university and met a student who was the President of a club. Then a week later, met another student who was the President of the same club. A few weeks later, the same.

It turns out, a bunch of students got together, created a club, and each member was called a "President." The best part is that if an employer ever checked, any member could honestly say "yes, he's a President in that club."

Re: An alarm about the influence of standardized tests on American society

#170

Standardized tests are a lousy way of deciding things. But at least they're better than non-standardized tests. At my university (SFU, in Canada) admission to most faculties is based on high school grades. That's grades awarded by high schools -- we used to have province-wide grade 12 exams, but for almost all subjects those were abolished a few years ago. It's widely recognized at the post-secondary level that a 90%…

One potential benefit of using high school grades is that it spreads out the opportunity to attend college, over a wider geographic area than just the affluent cities. In my state (Wisconsin), admission to the flagship state college is distributed in some similar way, though I don't know the details. Now of course we can ask if it's the best way to distribute this resource, and I think it depends to some extent on wh…

Texas is similar.

If you're in the top 10% of your graduating class, you have a spot in the University of Texas system. Though UT-Austin (the flagship) uses the top 8%.

Ref: http://catalog.utexas.edu/archive/2015-16/general-informatio...

Post reply on HN