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India, Once a Coal Goliath, Is Fast Turning Green

nytimes.com

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Re: India, Once a Coal Goliath, Is Fast Turning Green

#21

Post by woodandsteel »

thevardanian wrote: post #6
theprop wrote: post #2

India is doing pretty well in green energy on the whole! India has the 4th largest energy generator from wind in the world. India has the largest solar power plant in the world (Kamuthi in Tamil Nadu). I at least hope that India is not inclined to return to coal with the US's exit from the Paris accord. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_by_country http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2016/12/02/india-solar-power-pl...

The thing I don't understand is why it's assumed that somehow the Paris Treaty is somehow enforced, or binding, or that it will even actually improve conditions more-so than independent initiative. I personally think that the USA can achieve its goal without the Paris Treaty through personal responsibility of the states, and independent initiatives through counties, and cities. That type of independent resolution is…

Lots of US states are charging ahead on their own. Take California, for example.

Re: India, Once a Coal Goliath, Is Fast Turning Green

#23

Post by woodandsteel »

topspin wrote: post #11
hueving wrote: post #7

India, "still a coal Goliath" is a better description. They burn a massive amount of coal compared to most countries. They've just scaled slightly back on a massive coal consumption plan they implemented in the last few years. Nice, but hardly worth any recognition in the shadow of the damage they have already done.

Indeed. India has a coal glut on their hands. India was opening one new coal planet every month at the end of 2015. Around the same time India's Arvin Subramanian coined the term “carbon imperialism" during Paris accord negotiations because India didn't like the terms. As expected, much more favorable terms were renegotiated to get India on board; India now gets to grow their CO2 emission as a function of GDP. A simp…

>A simple extrapolation of this shows they'll double their already huge CO2 output by the end of the decade, far surpassing the US.

You have to look at the trends. India has radically changed directions in the last few years, and we can expect in the coming years it will change even more.

Re: India, Once a Coal Goliath, Is Fast Turning Green

#24

Post by propman »

woodandsteel wrote: post #21
thevardanian wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing I don't understand is why it's assumed that somehow the Paris Treaty is somehow enforced, or binding, or that it will even actually improve conditions more-so than independent initiative. I personally think that the USA can achieve its goal without the Paris Treaty through personal responsibility of the states, and independent initiatives through counties, and cities. That type of independent resolution is…

Lots of US states are charging ahead on their own. Take California, for example.

Texas is the biggest renewable energy producer in USA and almost all is from wind in the last 6 years. Rick Perry the big fossil fuel Republican did this from a $7B unpopular at the time investment into transmission lines from wind heavy areas to highly populated areas. He was criticized heavily, but is the sole reason for 25% of the entire US Wind power capacity

He did it for economic reasons and most of the renewable energy produced in the Statss are from red states. We have to invest in transmission lines and continue the PTC if we want to continue being #1 in Wind and these are both bipartisan issues. Just not very important to either party right now

Re: India, Once a Coal Goliath, Is Fast Turning Green

#25

Post by notyourwork »

throwawayjava wrote: post #13
topspin wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. India has a coal glut on their hands. India was opening one new coal planet every month at the end of 2015. Around the same time India's Arvin Subramanian coined the term “carbon imperialism" during Paris accord negotiations because India didn't like the terms. As expected, much more favorable terms were renegotiated to get India on board; India now gets to grow their CO2 emission as a function of GDP. A simp…

> far surpassing the US Why is this a problem? India has 4x the population...

Why is this not a problem? In the world of pollution and environmental health, using justification of because another country does it doesn't work.

Re: India, Once a Coal Goliath, Is Fast Turning Green

#26

Post by guelo »

thevardanian wrote: post #6
theprop wrote: post #2

India is doing pretty well in green energy on the whole! India has the 4th largest energy generator from wind in the world. India has the largest solar power plant in the world (Kamuthi in Tamil Nadu). I at least hope that India is not inclined to return to coal with the US's exit from the Paris accord. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_by_country http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2016/12/02/india-solar-power-pl...

The thing I don't understand is why it's assumed that somehow the Paris Treaty is somehow enforced, or binding, or that it will even actually improve conditions more-so than independent initiative. I personally think that the USA can achieve its goal without the Paris Treaty through personal responsibility of the states, and independent initiatives through counties, and cities. That type of independent resolution is…

> personal responsibility of the states

huh? If the 4 million people of Oklahoma don't take "personal responsibility" for polluting the atmosphere we all pay the price not just them.

Re: India, Once a Coal Goliath, Is Fast Turning Green

#27

Post by pkhagah »

xrange wrote: post #22

Anyone know more about India's nuclear story? At one time they were focusing on thorium. I wonder what we could do to spur on a little more competition with China. http://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/current-and...

India is still focusing on thorium. But slowly. Design for AHWR if recently finalized and site selection in progress.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_heavy-water_reactor

Re: India, Once a Coal Goliath, Is Fast Turning Green

#28

Post by hibikir »

thevardanian wrote: post #6
theprop wrote: post #2

India is doing pretty well in green energy on the whole! India has the 4th largest energy generator from wind in the world. India has the largest solar power plant in the world (Kamuthi in Tamil Nadu). I at least hope that India is not inclined to return to coal with the US's exit from the Paris accord. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_by_country http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2016/12/02/india-solar-power-pl...

The thing I don't understand is why it's assumed that somehow the Paris Treaty is somehow enforced, or binding, or that it will even actually improve conditions more-so than independent initiative. I personally think that the USA can achieve its goal without the Paris Treaty through personal responsibility of the states, and independent initiatives through counties, and cities. That type of independent resolution is…

Treaties like this have a big signaling component, just like macroeconomics. Improvements are perfectly possible without them, but even a toothless treaty affects all kinds of decisions downstream.

We also take into account that energy production is about large capital investments that aren't looking at tomorrow, but a decade or two ahead at the minimum. Building a new coal plant today isn't a bad idea because it'll be way to expensive to run in its first year, but because it'll be less and less attractive as time goes by, and will probably have its life cut short.

This is why on one hand, Trump's decisions aren't necessarily that hard hitting in the long run as long as the people building plants can expect his decisions today to be a historical aberration. It's the long run trendline that is important, and we can tell about that by what other stakeholders do.

That said, I'd not put much faith in most states caring about climate change individually. There's plenty of states that are deep red and where most energy today still comes from coal, and where candidates don't even bother mentioning an energy stance: Elections are about protecting religion and policemen and lower taxes. It's not that the states are relying on the federal government on the environment: If there's a mention of the environment, it's something like 'The EPA is too tough on our farmers'. This was a real talking point in Missouri's last election for governor, and guess what? the candidate that was in favor of letting farmers dump more chemicals into rivers won.

The federal government can force those states to make changes, but they'll have to be dragged kicking and screaming. It's good to have some states that lead the charge on this, but it's can't be the main way to do this. If this is decided state by state, the Midwest will be mostly powering itself with coal for decades.

Re: India, Once a Coal Goliath, Is Fast Turning Green

#29

Post by pkaye »

throwawayjava wrote: post #13
topspin wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. India has a coal glut on their hands. India was opening one new coal planet every month at the end of 2015. Around the same time India's Arvin Subramanian coined the term “carbon imperialism" during Paris accord negotiations because India didn't like the terms. As expected, much more favorable terms were renegotiated to get India on board; India now gets to grow their CO2 emission as a function of GDP. A simp…

> far surpassing the US Why is this a problem? India has 4x the population...

For one, health issues related to air quality have no basis on per capita pollution.

Re: India, Once a Coal Goliath, Is Fast Turning Green

#30

Post by vthallam »

topspin wrote: post #11
hueving wrote: post #7

India, "still a coal Goliath" is a better description. They burn a massive amount of coal compared to most countries. They've just scaled slightly back on a massive coal consumption plan they implemented in the last few years. Nice, but hardly worth any recognition in the shadow of the damage they have already done.

Indeed. India has a coal glut on their hands. India was opening one new coal planet every month at the end of 2015. Around the same time India's Arvin Subramanian coined the term “carbon imperialism" during Paris accord negotiations because India didn't like the terms. As expected, much more favorable terms were renegotiated to get India on board; India now gets to grow their CO2 emission as a function of GDP. A simp…

India had to negotiate because it's emissions relative to emissions of the developed countries were minuscule. And then, you can't come say, let's make an agreement which shares equal responsibilities and burden.

Also, The Indian govt has a moral obligation to give it's citizens the basic amenities like power to the houses. They have been parallelly using coal and renewables to do it, now the cost of solar per unit is lesser than coal, so it's planning to cut down on coal.

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