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The World Economic Forum predicts a USD 400 trillion pensions shortfall by 2050

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Re: The World Economic Forum predicts a USD 400 trillion pensions shortfall by 2050

#31
post #3

I get how an excess of pensioners (not enough workers) in an economy can be a problem. I get how an excess of unemployed people (people without a job) can be a problem. What I don't get is how both can be a problem at the same time.

I think you're simplifying the relationships too much. First of all, you can't very easily make more qualified workers because you promised too much to too many pensioners. Those pensioners are counting on promises from their too-big-to-fail governments. Meanwhile, the government is funneling an ever-greater percentage of revenue from productive pursuits to pensions. Once you're in the trap, it's not as simple as pen…

> the government is funneling an ever-greater percentage of revenue from productive pursuits to pensions

That is too simplistic for me. Income for one also is income for somebody else down the line.

All those "economic" considerations I read about - not just on this topic - remind me of my extremely lousy chess play: Never think more than a single step ahead.

But the economy is a circle. All those views are form the PoV of an individual entity - income and expenses, and where it comes from and where it goes "does not matter".

But to look at the economy is completely different! Here you have to look at the entire circle, not at just a single piece of the chain.

For example, giving old people money, directly or indirectly, leads to an increased flow of money through systems of the economy that are utilized by old people. That would be the health sector most of all, not a lot of change in housing or food (they already had a roof to live under before they retired and they won't eat more food than before). Maybe tourism benefits too.

What happens if they get less money? What sector(s) benefit(s), who loses?

The purely financial considerations don't make sense to me on the greater economic level. Is the economy suddenly unable to maintain the housing and produce sufficient food because some numbers in some balance sheets are off? That happened a lot in history. My own grand parents lived with at least five different currencies within their lifetime without moving (Germany). We found that "finance" can easily be reset provided people are willing to do so (that's the important part) - what matters is factories, knowledge, culture, trade, etc.

There certainly are a lot of problems of high pensions (compared to non-pensioners), for example if the old people end up with a larger share of the available housing, which includes not just housing they themselves use but also housing they control (investments) because that funnels even more of the money flow through the economy through the control of (some relatively few) old people. that may no lead to a housing shortage, after all who owns housing does not seem so important as long as there is enough, but a consequence is that young(er) people feel insecure in their outlook and are more reluctant to have a family. Also, the kinds of housing being built is probably different when done purely as an investment.

As for the health sector, I'm not sure how bad it is to have it deal (even more) with old people's problems. After all, aging is everybody's problem at some point and if that leads to progress, be it symptom control or some day even more direct control of aging I don't see why getting more of the economy's money flow to go through that sector would be bad. After all if "cost control" was the overwhelming argument then collective suicide would be the best solution. Since we are alive and like it that way we may as well "waste" our resources on just that.

We have that wonderful tool "money" and "finance", but I think too many people have forgotten that it is a tool and treat it like a natural law and the be-all and end-all. We actually have much greater control - and much more arbitrary control than a lot of people think - over how we use the tool. Unfortunately only severe crisis opens the minds of people enough to wield the power we actually have over our own creation.

Re: The World Economic Forum predicts a USD 400 trillion pensions shortfall by 2050

#32
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After all pensioners aren't likely to riot. I would highly recommend reading The Road To Serfdom ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Road_to_Serfdom ). It details precisely why a right wing government needs to invest in welfare and social care for this exact reason; when a government fails the poor (or the poor's parents I imagine) they have a tendency to rise up and kill all the rich people.

Show me one example since say, 1980.

> Show me one example since say, 1980. Also, it has to be in this room!

Re: The World Economic Forum predicts a USD 400 trillion pensions shortfall by 2050

#34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine a desert island with three inhabitants: W, P, & U. W climbs trees every day to fetch coconuts and then swims them across the channel to a neighboring island where she barters them away for drinking water and then swims back with jugs full of water. P used to help W with the tree climbing, but is now too old to do the work. However, he long ago made a deal with W, and she's a man of her word, so she keeps him…

Imagine a desert island with three inhabitants: W, P, & U. They are primates descending from groups inhabiting the savannah. As all the groups of this kind, they take care of the group whenever there are enough resources. If they are not forced by harsh circumstances, they don't leave to die of hungry the old. In the improbable case that one member of the group doesn't know how to do almost anything, somebody (maybe…

You're responding to a totally different point to the one made by the parent.

Their point only shows that it is possible to have unemployment and an excess of pensioners.

It would have been easier to point out that an excess of pensioners != not enough workers. They're clearly different statements. But the illustration also served the purpose.

It did not, as far as I can tell, in any way suggest W should let U and P die, only demonstrated their simultaneous lack of utility for the workforce.

Re: The World Economic Forum predicts a USD 400 trillion pensions shortfall by 2050

#35
post #3

I get how an excess of pensioners (not enough workers) in an economy can be a problem. I get how an excess of unemployed people (people without a job) can be a problem. What I don't get is how both can be a problem at the same time.

Because you're ignoring problem 3. Not enough work.

Modern economies run into issues with lots of investment in bubbles that don't increase productivity. Housing booms that rapidly increase the cost of housing don't increase productivity. Investing in ever riskier twisted financial exploitations does not increase productivity. Having huge amounts of taxable income filtered out of the country robs a country from future infrastructure investment, which does not increase productivity.

Re: The World Economic Forum predicts a USD 400 trillion pensions shortfall by 2050

#36
post #3

I get how an excess of pensioners (not enough workers) in an economy can be a problem. I get how an excess of unemployed people (people without a job) can be a problem. What I don't get is how both can be a problem at the same time.

Imagine a desert island with three inhabitants: W, P, & U. W climbs trees every day to fetch coconuts and then swims them across the channel to a neighboring island where she barters them away for drinking water and then swims back with jugs full of water. P used to help W with the tree climbing, but is now too old to do the work. However, he long ago made a deal with W, and she's a man of her word, so she keeps him…

Well, P could take steps to help U learn to help W. e.g. giving them a bit of water, and training them to help W; instead of blaming U for the poor coconut yield. Which in turn would help W yield more coconuts, or be flexible to diversify how they get water to be robust against the coconut market. I get how you example illustrates how the amount of P's aren't dependant on the number of U's, but I think this example is too microscopic.

I think there's another factor to consider. W doesn't give water directly to P, there's G who takes a little bit of water from everyone. G has enough water for themselves, and instead of drinking just the water they need, or helping U to make their island economy better, they decide to bathe in the water. Then when P wants some water like G has promised and there's none left, they blame U. Which makes W and P angry at U.

The situation is more like G is taking a little bit of water from everyone, and there's yet another person on the island E. E is in charge of delegating coconut fetching tasks to W and up until recently P. G decided E should also be in charge of distributing water that comes from G to W and P.

E realizes that once P leaves, there will only be one coconut fetcher. So, worried that they won't be getting enough water to give to G, E gives less water to W instead of hiring and training U to help this coconut fetching business. This isn't good because eventually W will become a P, and E will have no one, and G will not be getting water from E. Everyone becomes a U because G decided to give water to E to delegate instead of directly to W, P, and U.

Re: The World Economic Forum predicts a USD 400 trillion pensions shortfall by 2050

#37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pensioners are also "people without a job".

But I though that the problem with pensioners was that there was not enough young workers for maintain them, am I wrong? excess of pensioners => not enough workers unemployed people => excess of workers

Yeah, but the number of jobs is independent of either of these numbers.

You could have no jobs and lots of pensioners. Then everyone wants to work but can't and those who once were working have retired.

Re: The World Economic Forum predicts a USD 400 trillion pensions shortfall by 2050

#38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine a desert island with three inhabitants: W, P, & U. They are primates descending from groups inhabiting the savannah. As all the groups of this kind, they take care of the group whenever there are enough resources. If they are not forced by harsh circumstances, they don't leave to die of hungry the old. In the improbable case that one member of the group doesn't know how to do almost anything, somebody (maybe…

You're responding to a totally different point to the one made by the parent. Their point only shows that it is possible to have unemployment and an excess of pensioners. It would have been easier to point out that an excess of pensioners != not enough workers. They're clearly different statements. But the illustration also served the purpose. It did not, as far as I can tell, in any way suggest W should let U and P…

Fair enough.

So, as I understand it, the argument is that unemployed people is unemployed not because the economy is so productive (we have coconuts and water for everybody with very little job) but because they are not enough qualified.

In other words, there are not enough qualified workers as demanded, and that is the reason we see real wages going up and up all the time.

Re: The World Economic Forum predicts a USD 400 trillion pensions shortfall by 2050

#39

People will have to pay a little more, a little longer, and take out a little less in some combination. I am sure the actuaries are smart enough to figure it out.

A lot of solutions for budget shortfalls seem to be focused on increasing burdens and reducing services for the lower classes. Maybe some of these shortfalls could be made up for by bringing the tax rates on the wealthy and corporations back up to pre-Reagan era levels, and also recouping some of the trillions in tax avoidance money hiding in offshore shelters?

This seems more preferable to me than nickle and diming the elderly.

Re: The World Economic Forum predicts a USD 400 trillion pensions shortfall by 2050

#40

People will have to pay a little more, a little longer, and take out a little less in some combination. I am sure the actuaries are smart enough to figure it out.

A lot of solutions for budget shortfalls seem to be focused on increasing burdens and reducing services for the lower classes. Maybe some of these shortfalls could be made up for by bringing the tax rates on the wealthy and corporations back up to pre-Reagan era levels, and also recouping some of the trillions in tax avoidance money hiding in offshore shelters? This seems more preferable to me than nickle and diming…

Well, people are supposed to fund their own pensions. This is not a tool of redistribution. If they life longer, it is logical they have to either retire later, get lower pensions, or contribute more, or all of the above.
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