Earlier quoted context omitted.
I definitely agree, and this problem is not limited to what we consider (or considered) repressive regimes.. In 1995 I went to visit college friends in Austin TX (I'm from eastern Canada) and a few of them who had grown up in Buda TX (a small town outside of Austin) told me that until high school (late 80s) they had been told in school by multiple teachers that the US had "won" the Vietnam War. Obviously an anecdote,…
I never heard "we won Vietnam," except jokingly, going to a regular public school in the 90's and 2000's in the Pacific Northwest. My dad always described Vietnam with a little head-shaking regret (he was born in Texas in 1957, so he was too young to be drafted, but we had family friends in the war). We didn't hear about it much in elementary school, but in middle school history classes we learned about the Gulf of T…
Hidden Away for 28 Years, Tiananmen Protest Pictures See Light of Day
121–130 of 135 posts
Re: Hidden Away for 28 Years, Tiananmen Protest Pictures See Light of Day
#122Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm going to take a kind of despicable position. We don't know what would have happened had the protests been allowed to continue. China is a vast country with mostly poor, uneducated people -- especially so in 1989. Look at what happened in Syria. Look at the Arab spring. Is it just to kill hundreds, to prevent the slaughter of hundreds of thousands? If the answer is no, never, I don't see how we can have states at…
I believe downvotes should be reserved for comments that are not substantial, not comments you disagree with. I am disappointed to see this, but I am not surprised. It is hardly "legal" to take a different stand here on this particular issue.
We can't know what happened to people in Dimension X, but we know that you aren't supposed to kill your citizens in our home dimension.
Re: Hidden Away for 28 Years, Tiananmen Protest Pictures See Light of Day
#123Kind of a personal story, but my fiancé is from Beijing. She found out about Tiananmen square about a year ago. She only knew that she shouldn't ask about the Tiananmen incident growing up and that it was a bad thing that happened. She has been in the states for several years now and when she found out what really happened with our even blurry images and stories we have now it really changed her perspective on things…
I live in Tasmania. Couple years ago I met a philosophy graduate from Germany who didn't know who Pol Pot was.
How can a person go through a four year liberal arts course at a Western university and manage to evade such knowledge.
Re: Hidden Away for 28 Years, Tiananmen Protest Pictures See Light of Day
#124Earlier quoted context omitted.
You are applying the same logic correctly, favoring long term peaceful transitions over short term civil wars. Yours is not a juxtaposition, it's strengthening the argument.
Except that the Tienanmen response might have prevented such a short term civil war. History has shown that China was on the right track, it's very hard to imagine they could have done any better since 1989.
Re: Hidden Away for 28 Years, Tiananmen Protest Pictures See Light of Day
#125Earlier quoted context omitted.
Syria became mess not because there were peaceful protests, but because the extreme violence and oppression visited down by the government tore the country apart. You are holding the peaceful protesters responsible for the consequences of violent state repression. Perhaps you might want to rethink where the blame for that repression lies. Personally, I don't think it lies with the protesters. Imagine an alternate tim…
Curious how the extreme violence of the Chinese response in Tienanmen is responsible for the continuation of the government politics; while the same extreme response in Syria would be responsible for tearing apart the country. Let me express a doubt about this kind of explanation, that seems more fit to put the blame squarely on the bad guy rather than understanding what happened. When protests turn so easily into a…
There were actually some leaders with sympathetic and liberal movements in the times that led up to (and during) the TS incident, but afterwards the Chinese government either forced them to toe the party line or removed them from power. Their unwillingness to allow peaceful dissent, their massive overreaction, and their blatant suppression of the facts and of the expressions of grief afterwards have certainly fixed the governmental direction for quite some time. Hardline censorship and oppression supporters got more power, while those opposed got purged or learned to stay quiet. The government policy was at a crossroads until then, but they doubled-down on a surveillance state.
A government that straight up murders citizens during a peaceful protest and then refuses to let them talk about it for decades after has a huge effect. It's not just on the leaders in power, either. Even if they don't get the whole story, the Chinese populace is quite savvy about what can and can't be talked about. Most people will stand up for what they think is right when the risk is relatively small. TS reflected that, with academic elites being openly honest about their opinions about the state and future of the country. China was changing a lot and they thought there was finally a chance for a dialogue. But it was made quite clear that non-violent protest will be squashed and you will quite possibly be murdered or smeared for speaking a contrary opinion - even if it's out of patriotism.
It drove all dissenters into hiding or out of the country, leaving an empty playground for military and political power seekers who had no problem with heavy-handed retaliation.
> Curious how the extreme violence of the Chinese response in Tienanmen is responsible for the continuation of the government politics; while the same extreme response in Syria would be responsible for tearing apart the country.
The thing in common is that, rather than listen to their citizens, the government chose suppression and murder. The citizen reactions in both cases are hugely different. But the source of the problem isn't different - an oppressive government. We don't shame people who back down when the alternative is death or civil war. It's an understandable choice. But we do shame people and governments who literally can't tolerate dissent without military might. Especially if they won't let you talk about it afterwards. Resorting to military might is a sign of political weakness, not strength.
Re: Hidden Away for 28 Years, Tiananmen Protest Pictures See Light of Day
#126Earlier quoted context omitted.
And the worst part about having to move out of country to find out things that were censored/hidden? You'll be inclined to believe foreign nations have a negative bias towards China. At least, that's China's (and Russia's) narrative.
To be fair, USA hardly ever reports positive articles about China. We didn't report on their moon landing until a year after it happened and many people don't even know it happened at all. Same goes with their space station. The only coverage went to their previous one that is leaving orbit into earth. I know that this is a small sample size and only related to their space program as well as my personal observations,…
That's not true at all. For decades the mainstream media has been reporting about how China has been industrializing at a remarkable pace, and how the life of the average person there is vastly more free than it was under Mao.
But it also reports on the negatives like net censorship and widespread corruption. On the whole, I think the US mainstream media gives a much more balanced picture China than does China's own media.
Re: Hidden Away for 28 Years, Tiananmen Protest Pictures See Light of Day
#127Kind of a personal story, but my fiancé is from Beijing. She found out about Tiananmen square about a year ago. She only knew that she shouldn't ask about the Tiananmen incident growing up and that it was a bad thing that happened. She has been in the states for several years now and when she found out what really happened with our even blurry images and stories we have now it really changed her perspective on things…
>You should not have to move out of country to know what your country has done. Pretty much applies everywhere. As a shortwave listener back in the day, the invasions of Grenada and Panama were widely broadcast ~8-12 hours everywhere before a peep showed up in US media. Iran-Contra and many other US actions were not uncovered by domestic media, they were exposed by foreign journalists. People think they're better inf…
That's nonsense. The US media is far more open and accurate than that the majority of nations, and far better than China.
> the only two US media pundits who got any airtime opposing the Iraq War were Michael Moore and Paul Krugman.
No, there was intense debate in the mainstream media. I know, I followed it.
Re: Hidden Away for 28 Years, Tiananmen Protest Pictures See Light of Day
#128Read some real opinions please: https://www.quora.com/Why-are-todays-young-adults-in-China-s...
I wouldn't assume any particular post is a 'real opinion'. The CCP employs many shills posting noise to domestic social media, so it wouldn't surprise me to see chaff on Quora as well.
Re: Hidden Away for 28 Years, Tiananmen Protest Pictures See Light of Day
#129Earlier quoted context omitted.
I wouldn't assume any particular post is a 'real opinion'. The CCP employs many shills posting noise to domestic social media, so it wouldn't surprise me to see chaff on Quora as well.
You can write off anything with that, to be honest. It's like the nuclear weapon of arguments that ensures mutual destruction
There was a recent story about an academic study of the methods of in-China Party shills (I forget the link). By my skim they were more about distraction and noise than obvious pushing of the party line.
Re: Hidden Away for 28 Years, Tiananmen Protest Pictures See Light of Day
#130Earlier quoted context omitted.
Syria became mess not because there were peaceful protests, but because the extreme violence and oppression visited down by the government tore the country apart. You are holding the peaceful protesters responsible for the consequences of violent state repression. Perhaps you might want to rethink where the blame for that repression lies. Personally, I don't think it lies with the protesters. Imagine an alternate tim…
Curious how the extreme violence of the Chinese response in Tienanmen is responsible for the continuation of the government politics; while the same extreme response in Syria would be responsible for tearing apart the country. Let me express a doubt about this kind of explanation, that seems more fit to put the blame squarely on the bad guy rather than understanding what happened. When protests turn so easily into a…
Violent suppression and murder of peaceful protesters is simply not justifiable. Violent protesters, maybe. Riots against people and property, ok. Peaceful protesters, no. When you have an already violent situation sometimes countering the violence with violence is the only option. But instigating violence where there currently is none is IMHO clearly wrong.