Response from the market: http://i.imgur.com/CDKVSWq.jpg The Paris Accord according to President Trump would have allowed China to do whatever they want for the next 13 years, while India would receive billions in aid. http://climateactiontracker.org/countries/usa.html - US Pledges ( 26-28%) VS. http://climateactiontracker.org/countries/china.html - China Pledges (0%)
US quits Paris climate pact
331–340 of 413 posts
Re: US quits Paris climate pact
#332This is one of those situations where you should be shaking your head, even if you're a climate change denying conservative or a fussil fuel industrial interest. The Paris pact was pretty toothless: it was a step forward, but heavily aspirational. Indeed, one of the stated complaints of conservatives was that it did nothing to enforce compliance. The Trump Administration could have just as well ignored it without for…
Every child of this top comment has been downvoted into grayness. Some of those comments have substantial points to make. What's going on? I basically agree with scarmig, but it seems there's not much space for contrary opinions around here right now, which bothers me.
Re: US quits Paris climate pact
#333Does anyone think we might start seeing a brain drain out of the US given the current political climate?
Yes. Most of the educated Americans I know are assessing emigration in a more-than-idle-dreams way. By 2020 I expect that the most risk-accepting and flexible Americans - the creme de la creme for new ideas and new businesses - will be gone.
Re: US quits Paris climate pact
#334This is one of those situations where you should be shaking your head, even if you're a climate change denying conservative or a fussil fuel industrial interest. The Paris pact was pretty toothless: it was a step forward, but heavily aspirational. Indeed, one of the stated complaints of conservatives was that it did nothing to enforce compliance. The Trump Administration could have just as well ignored it without for…
That is because the previous president decided to unilaterally bind the country to the agreement rather than seek treaty ratification from Congress. It is a risk that ruling by executive decree entails.
The problem is the gross disconnect between Local, State, and Federal interests. Polls have support for the Paris agreement well into the majority, beyond the margin for error; were it to head to something like a referendum, the US would have signed onto the Paris agreement.
And even that being the case, President Obama was well aware of the fact that it never would have been ratified by the Senate.
The international credibility problem also reaches critical levels when you consider that the United States has 4 year terms but signs onto 20 year agreements, when the political sphere is so radically split. Every four years, the International community is forced to hold its breath as one of the top world superpowers seemingly flips a coin as to whether or not it will uphold its bargains. It is worth noting that this wasn't always the case; it was standing tradition that you followed through on a previous administration's agreements, simply to maintain credibility.
Whether it is a function of Trump himself, his die-hard base, or a large group of confluent factors (my vote is for this one), this tradition of maintaining credibility despite political cost holds very little water with the current administration. Worse, this is exactly what his base seems to want and clamor for. They are painting a political climate where the country takes a 180 degree turn (rather than, say, a 120 degree curve) every 4 to 8 years.
How long can a country in a global economy at the scale of the United States maintain that strain without snapping? It'll be interesting to watch, if nothing else.
Re: US quits Paris climate pact
#335Earlier quoted context omitted.
Complete nonsense on both counts. First of all, consider that the most visible public debate about this has centered on whether it is even possible to limit warming to 2C. Start by reading the two links I posted. If you would like to learn more, the IPCC reports are genuinely well written and accessible: https://www.ipcc.ch/report/ar5/ I would hope that at least on HN we could all agree on a shared objective reality…
Further clarification, my bad: 0.3 degrees _greater_ warming if the US withdraws. Not 0.3 degrees total. The climate is warming, no one is disputing that. It's not warming anywhere near as quickly as models from 10 years ago predicted, though.
Re: US quits Paris climate pact
#336Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Other countries don't care about post-facto rationalizations by partisans to demonize the other side in domestic policies. Which is a key reason why international cooperation is so dangerous. It's insensitive to domestic politics and law.
But other countries can and do maintain international commitments and cooperation. The USA did for most of its lifetime. That tool is increasingly less available to the USA, as a result of this (and NATO).
Re: US quits Paris climate pact
#337This is one of those situations where you should be shaking your head, even if you're a climate change denying conservative or a fussil fuel industrial interest. The Paris pact was pretty toothless: it was a step forward, but heavily aspirational. Indeed, one of the stated complaints of conservatives was that it did nothing to enforce compliance. The Trump Administration could have just as well ignored it without for…
> he's seriously undermined people's ability to trust in the United States maintaining its international obligations What if that is in fact the goal? Many people in Trump's administration are openly anti-globalists and many of his voters and supporters have the explicit goal of "exiting" globalism.
Re: US quits Paris climate pact
#338Earlier quoted context omitted.
A fellow HackerNews reader had a great quote, I don't remember the source. You're basically complaining that China has too many people and would presumably want that some of them wouldn't exist. His quote was: "If you think a certain group of people shouldn't exist, how do you select that group of people? And how do you know that you, yourself, shouldn't he a part of that group?". China's population is a fact. In the…
> would presumably want that some of them wouldn't exist. I simply don't want to pay to enable them even more. When the proper social constraints aren't in place, money = energy = more babies. It's poor policy to continually reward countries that are chronically overcrowded and polluted, it just makes the issues worse long-term. >The US is basically eating its own seed corn. It's hilarious to me that you believe this…
Re: US quits Paris climate pact
#339Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes, the Paris pact was toothless. It was never going to work, just like Kyoto didn't work. So what's wrong with pulling out of it? Consternation over the Paris accord is, in my opinion, elitist liberal virtue signaling. (Here in the DC/MD/VA area, everyone will complain about this move at Starbucks sipping on lattes while driving one hour each way to work from their McMansion in the exurbs. God forbid we do anything…
So you feel like your individual observations in the DC/MD/VA area validate the rejection of a global climate accord? Unless these elitist liberals choose to sit in the dark and not consume power, walk to work (likely impossible, so maybe just not work since working also probably produces a lot of CO2) then there is no reason to attack the problem at a global or national level? What happens to the power companies if…
That are lots of things we can do to attack climate change. None of those things are on the table.
Re: US quits Paris climate pact
#340Earlier quoted context omitted.
Any sources for that claim on Germany exiting NATO? Also strange how they didn't seem to make those speeches during the last administration. And the one before that. And the one before that. And the one before that... Remember, Article V has been invoked just once: Afghanistan after 9/11. We can debate if that was a good or bad action, but strictly speaking, it's only ever been invoked in defense of the USA.
You reject Angela Merkel as a source? How do you interpret her saying the EU must "take its fate into its own hands" and that they can "no longer rely on the United States and UK"? You do read Der Speigel? - ran an article weeks ago saying there would not even be a decision on spending until 2020. From February: "The United States and our international allies, which for so long has been the centerpiece of what is rig…
Just because they say they need to be more self-reliant doesn't mean they're pulling out of the alliance. Even Trump, with whom I disagree on pretty much everything, isn't leaving the alliance despite his overheated and irresponsible rhetoric. And "quickly becoming unraveled" is not "we want to leave" it's more "there's a maniac in the white house destabilizing everything that has worked for the past half century".
EDIT: Typo