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US quits Paris climate pact

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Re: US quits Paris climate pact

#71

Post by optimuspaul »

maxxxxx wrote: post #38
davesque wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the only way anyone could argue there are any pros is if they could convince me that Trump has a different long-term plan to address climate change. Unfortunately, all of his actions up to this point indicate that he doesn't have any such plan. I really wish people would stop trying to understand and rationalize this man's actions. He has no rational for what he does other than his own short-lived whims and t…

That's a Republican orthodoxy, not just Trump. Climate change either doesn't occur, or if it occurs it's not man made, if it's man made nothing can be done. In any case, doing anything is job killing and anti freedom. I think Trump himself doesn't care.

Seems to me that doing something would actually create jobs, but maybe not enough to offset those lost? Shortsighted is what it really is. Who cares if it's job killing if the alternative is civilization killing.

Re: US quits Paris climate pact

#72

Post by Danihan »

pouetpouet wrote: post #60
Danihan wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The deal is unenforceable, very expensive, and most likely will fail. Also, China emits twice as much greenhouse gas as the United States.

The US emit more than double per capita.

So you're saying you want to emulate countries that have much denser populations, countries who are so poor that they can't afford much carbon-producing industry, yet who continue to have unsustainable birthrates? I'm pretty sure the US sets a better example on that front.

Carbon per capita aside, do you realize how much pollution China and India produce? Do you realize what the rivers and lakes are like in those countries?

Yet you want to pay them Billions of dollars from US taxpayers to enable them to do even more of the same? How does that make sense?

Re: US quits Paris climate pact

#73

Post by dragonwriter »

rayiner wrote: post #50

Even as an environmentalist, I'm okay with this. The political reaction to climate change is a farce. The Paris accord isn't going to do anything, just like the Kyoto protocol didn't do anything. It's just a way for people to feel good without making any real lifestyle changes.

> Even as an environmentalist

Huh? From your comment history here, you seem like much more of a laissez-faire capitalist than any kind of environmentalist.

Re: US quits Paris climate pact

#74

Post by fudgie »

mmilano wrote: post #40
vowelless wrote: post #2

Can someone give me pros and cons of this move (serious responses only)? Thanks

I watched the announcement w/o knowing much about it. He justified the decision by saying: - We're paying 100b/year when other developed countries do not have to. - Spending on that is unaccounted for. - The impact will be (only) a 2/10 Celcius reduction in temperature by 2100 - The positive impact by 2030 is the equivalent of what China pollutes in 14 days. Just stating what was said. I don't know which are facts.

According to Michael E. Mann, in 2100 it's +4.5C with no action, +3.5C with just the Paris Accord, and +1.8C with ratcheting up. (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DBQpulkWAAE2mrc.jpg)

Re: US quits Paris climate pact

#75

Post by PythonicAlpha »

This is a bad day for the US, since by such a behavior ("America first -- ignore international pacts"), the other countries will less and less likely follow this country (with exception of Saudi Arabia, of course).

The Europeans are already drawn to China and India and this will grow stronger.

And Trump should not think, that European buyers will be more inclined in the future to support US companies by buying US products.

Re: US quits Paris climate pact

#76

Post by rayiner »

scarmig wrote: post #51

This is one of those situations where you should be shaking your head, even if you're a climate change denying conservative or a fussil fuel industrial interest. The Paris pact was pretty toothless: it was a step forward, but heavily aspirational. Indeed, one of the stated complaints of conservatives was that it did nothing to enforce compliance. The Trump Administration could have just as well ignored it without for…

Yes, the Paris pact was toothless. It was never going to work, just like Kyoto didn't work. So what's wrong with pulling out of it?

Consternation over the Paris accord is, in my opinion, elitist liberal virtue signaling. (Here in the DC/MD/VA area, everyone will complain about this move at Starbucks sipping on lattes while driving one hour each way to work from their McMansion in the exurbs. God forbid we do anything that might require lifestyle changes, i.e. have some real hope of working.)

Re: US quits Paris climate pact

#77

Post by okreallywtf »

davesque wrote: post #10
vowelless wrote: post #2

Can someone give me pros and cons of this move (serious responses only)? Thanks

I think the only way anyone could argue there are any pros is if they could convince me that Trump has a different long-term plan to address climate change. Unfortunately, all of his actions up to this point indicate that he doesn't have any such plan. I really wish people would stop trying to understand and rationalize this man's actions. He has no rational for what he does other than his own short-lived whims and t…

That also assumes that whatever economic gains will be greater than the potential gains we could make by creating exportable renewable technology and the benefits of creating large numbers of sustainable energy jobs.

Then you have to account for the fact that as pollution (and therefore, CO2) is reduced, air quality improves, cancer rates decrease and all of the other health benefits related to airborn pollutants.

We are looking at an America without those things, or at least with renewables being adopted slower and with more resistance from the federal government than before.

I'm ashamed really, I'm especially ashamed by all the poor/middle class people who are actually proud of this just because it makes liberals and europeans unhappy.

Re: US quits Paris climate pact

#78

Post by agar »

Besides the obvious concerns about the impact on the climate, I'm really surprised that Trump doesn't recognize (or prioritize) the economic costs to pulling out of the agreement.

A new axis between the EU and China could jeopardize US efforts to become a leader in the research, development, sales, and services of clean tech. As costs of clean technology naturally drop to be equal or less than fossil fuels (as is already happening), this will become a massive market that ultimately shrinks the size of the oil/gas and coal industries.

The decision to pull out of the agreement could have a large negative impact on the ability to attract leading researchers and funding, which then affects future jobs and US competitiveness in what will clearly be a massive growth industry. This will lead to job loss in oil and gas, with no commensurate increase in the jobs in replacement fields.

Trump seems to take a "public company-esque" view of governing: focus on short-term gains rather than long-term R&D and strategic planning to win the long game.

Re: US quits Paris climate pact

#79

Post by weaksauce »

waqf wrote: post #25
seiferteric wrote: post #5

Does anyone think we might start seeing a brain drain out of the US given the current political climate?

Yes, but bear in mind: * where else will people go? The UK, for example, is also in an anti-immigrant mood. Though Canada may still be good. * the current political climate in the US is ... unstable. It'll be significantly different in a year or two, one way or another.

Canada has always been fairly hard to get into... just like most countries you have to bring more to the table than they would be giving you.

Re: US quits Paris climate pact

#80

Post by ChuckMcM »

bioapparatus wrote: post #58
CobrastanJorji wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that he now has a ground car company, an underground car company, and a space car company, I assume the next one will have to be some sort of atmospheric flying car company.

My money is on a water car.

... with rockets.
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