Hidden Away for 28 Years, Tiananmen Protest Pictures See Light of Day • Hacker News Board

Re: Hidden Away for 28 Years, Tiananmen Protest Pictures See Light of Day

#51

Post by marbletiles » Thu, Jun 01, 2017, 5:07 PM UTC

JabavuAdams wrote: post #11

blackbagboys wrote: post #2

An inspiring collection of photos, but I'd bet it attracts little interest outside a few select, irrelevant circles. One of the most heartbreaking thing about the massacre is not just that the mass murderers who ordered it were never held responsible but that today it barely even tarnishes their reputations, while the memory of their victims has been thoroughly suppressed.

I'm going to take a kind of despicable position. We don't know what would have happened had the protests been allowed to continue. China is a vast country with mostly poor, uneducated people -- especially so in 1989. Look at what happened in Syria. Look at the Arab spring. Is it just to kill hundreds, to prevent the slaughter of hundreds of thousands? If the answer is no, never, I don't see how we can have states at…

> Is it just to kill hundreds, to prevent the slaughter of hundreds of thousands?

A question like that can often be used to justify extreme exercise of state power -- witness raids on armed vigilante groups in the US -- but that's not quite the right question in this instance, which was a peaceful protest for democratic reform. As you say "we don't know what would have happened" here (and of course the Arab Spring couldn't have been a cautionary tale as it was decades in the future).

So the question in this situation is really "Is it just to kill hundreds, to prevent a hypothetical bad outcome you can't possibly predict, can't prove and which even if it happened you could mitigate in other ways at that time?". To which the answer is palpably "no".

In fact, it's a hell of a stretch to say oppressive dictatorships ever carry out actions like this "for the good of the many". They generally just carry them out to maintain their grip on power, which is an end in itself for them. But not one that justifies massacre, in the main.

Re: Hidden Away for 28 Years, Tiananmen Protest Pictures See Light of Day

#52

Post by muddyrivers » Thu, Jun 01, 2017, 5:07 PM UTC

SurrealSoul wrote: post #35

vtange wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the worst part about having to move out of country to find out things that were censored/hidden? You'll be inclined to believe foreign nations have a negative bias towards China. At least, that's China's (and Russia's) narrative.

To be fair, USA hardly ever reports positive articles about China. We didn't report on their moon landing until a year after it happened and many people don't even know it happened at all. Same goes with their space station. The only coverage went to their previous one that is leaving orbit into earth. I know that this is a small sample size and only related to their space program as well as my personal observations,…

I don't understand that it was voted down. I think it is a fair argument.

I agree the reporting has been getting better.

Re: Hidden Away for 28 Years, Tiananmen Protest Pictures See Light of Day

#53

Post by a_imho » Thu, Jun 01, 2017, 5:08 PM UTC

vtange wrote: post #10

There's inevitably going to be people trying to justify the tragedy here by suggesting America is no better, pointing to instances such as the Kent State Shootings (Vietnam War protest). For those people I'd like to point out that unlike China, America doesn't actively try to hide the negative sides of its history to the extent China does. I can read about the Kent State shootings all I want, along with the My Lai Ma…

I don't think they justify the tragedy, rather disagree with the US/West moral highground claims.

Re: Hidden Away for 28 Years, Tiananmen Protest Pictures See Light of Day

#54

Post by srcmap » Thu, Jun 01, 2017, 5:10 PM UTC

I remember watched a fascinate behind the scene documentary on the down fall of Gorbachev by the old USSR conservative leadership which actually caused the rise of Yeltsin in Youtube recently.

Likely in China during that period of time, the high level struggle for power also happened in BeiJing. In China the reformers of the time didn't win.

Re: Hidden Away for 28 Years, Tiananmen Protest Pictures See Light of Day

#55

Post by cyphunk » Thu, Jun 01, 2017, 5:11 PM UTC

vtange wrote: post #10

There's inevitably going to be people trying to justify the tragedy here by suggesting America is no better, pointing to instances such as the Kent State Shootings (Vietnam War protest). For those people I'd like to point out that unlike China, America doesn't actively try to hide the negative sides of its history to the extent China does. I can read about the Kent State shootings all I want, along with the My Lai Ma…

This alone is reason why I think china's handling of it's past is outdated and they will soon change it. Look at the US and EU nations: people forget and move on despite it being in the open. Being a productive power house of capitalism, which china now is, means most of the people are busy and will likely discount any negativity from government actions that are more than a decade old.

Re: Hidden Away for 28 Years, Tiananmen Protest Pictures See Light of Day

#56

Post by jeltz » Thu, Jun 01, 2017, 5:13 PM UTC

Sacho wrote: post #19

fludlight wrote: post #5

Student protests really scare older Chinese because they remember the reign of terror that the Red Guard kids perpetuated during the Cultural Revolution in the 1960s.

Wouldn't the "Red Guard kids" in the 1960s and the "older Chinese people" at Tiananmen have a large overlap?

Then there is even more reason for them to know how scary the Red Guard was. The Red Guard had quite a bit of internal fighting.

Re: Hidden Away for 28 Years, Tiananmen Protest Pictures See Light of Day

#57

Post by paradite » Thu, Jun 01, 2017, 5:15 PM UTC

JabavuAdams wrote: post #11

blackbagboys wrote: post #2

An inspiring collection of photos, but I'd bet it attracts little interest outside a few select, irrelevant circles. One of the most heartbreaking thing about the massacre is not just that the mass murderers who ordered it were never held responsible but that today it barely even tarnishes their reputations, while the memory of their victims has been thoroughly suppressed.

I'm going to take a kind of despicable position. We don't know what would have happened had the protests been allowed to continue. China is a vast country with mostly poor, uneducated people -- especially so in 1989. Look at what happened in Syria. Look at the Arab spring. Is it just to kill hundreds, to prevent the slaughter of hundreds of thousands? If the answer is no, never, I don't see how we can have states at…

I believe downvotes should be reserved for comments that are not substantial, not comments you disagree with.

I am disappointed to see this, but I am not surprised. It is hardly "legal" to take a different stand here on this particular issue.

Re: Hidden Away for 28 Years, Tiananmen Protest Pictures See Light of Day

#58

Post by ant6n » Thu, Jun 01, 2017, 5:16 PM UTC

k-mcgrady wrote: post #20

JabavuAdams wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to take a kind of despicable position. We don't know what would have happened had the protests been allowed to continue. China is a vast country with mostly poor, uneducated people -- especially so in 1989. Look at what happened in Syria. Look at the Arab spring. Is it just to kill hundreds, to prevent the slaughter of hundreds of thousands? If the answer is no, never, I don't see how we can have states at…

What you're saying is that it is better for people to live under authoritarian governments of dictatorships than die fighting for their freedom. It's not a despicable position but it's incredibly short-sighted.

Is it? In the long term, it's better to be alive than to be dead. Some would prefer a peaceful, long term transition compared to quick, violent civil war -- which may result in a worse overall state. Wars destroy civilizations, sometimes for generations.

This is something that Americans generally won't agree with, because their foundational myth is closely tied to the revolutionary war. Conveniently this war was a very long time ago, so one doesn't have to feel the personal consequences of it when using aphorisms like "you need to fight for your freedom".

Btw, the Canadians eventually got their independence without a war.

Re: Hidden Away for 28 Years, Tiananmen Protest Pictures See Light of Day

#59

Post by droopyEyelids » Thu, Jun 01, 2017, 5:16 PM UTC

nickbauman wrote: post #12

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #6

Yet another example of "nothing matters like success." Since 1989, China has gone on to have great success - both economic and diplomatic, and is on the verge (if not already achieved) super-power status. Because of that success, there is not much anybody can do about human rights abuses, so most people don't pay much attention to it.

A variation of Churchill's "History is written by the victors."

And Churchill knew what he was talking about.

https://crimesofbritain.com/2016/09/13/the-trial-of-winston-...

Re: Hidden Away for 28 Years, Tiananmen Protest Pictures See Light of Day

#60

Post by likelynew » Thu, Jun 01, 2017, 5:17 PM UTC

williw wrote: post #36

SurrealSoul wrote: post #7

Kind of a personal story, but my fiancé is from Beijing. She found out about Tiananmen square about a year ago. She only knew that she shouldn't ask about the Tiananmen incident growing up and that it was a bad thing that happened. She has been in the states for several years now and when she found out what really happened with our even blurry images and stories we have now it really changed her perspective on things…

How old is she? I was maybe 8 at the time. I was not in Beijing. Even I knew what was happening, the event was broadcasted on TV at the time. It was probably heavily censored, but I knew demonstrations etc were going on in Beijing at the time.

Why the downvotes? How many british people know about Jallianwala Bagh massacre, shooting at a peaceful gathering killing hundreds, that was committed by them in India? How many americans care about the systematic racial genocide in their land? Most people don't care unless the event is very shocking at that time and place. And, if china is still poor, no one in west would have cared for their human rights violation.