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Ask HN: Typical Startup or Abuse?

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Re: Ask HN: Typical Startup or Abuse?

#11

Post by lars512 »

datawalke wrote: post #6
kls wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to agree, dude you are making 26k a year. Starting salary for a fresh junior is 40k and that is just someone who know HTML, CSS and Photoshop let alone if they actually know a server side language. He is lying about the 1099 being cheaper, that is only true if you are an S-Corporation, right now you are responsible for a little over 15% for social security, something that you are not if you are W2 or a corp. $…

"As for the "he has not taken any pay" crap, he has equity, you do not your only reward is your pay check in that situation." Very correct. On several occasions I have been promised equity. At first as a compensation for my pay, and then as vested. However none of this ever came into existence. Every time I brought it up again he would keep putting it off. But then in any discussions for a raise or anything to that d…

If your promises of equity aren't in formal agreements, then they're not worth anything. It sounds like your employer is letting you take all the risk, without offering you any reward, now or later.

I'd work out what your market salary is. Then work out what you really need to live, support your family, and give you options over the next year. You then need to negotiate with your boss to either pay you at market rates, or at your actual needs but with some formal equity to make up the difference.

He won't be happy with any of this, and most likely you'll have to leave. It sounds like the whole start-up may fail if you do, if you're really the one holding it together. Hopefully your employer realises this during negotiations, but he may not be able to think about the issue rationally. On every occasion that someone I know has taken work beneath their market value, they've never successfully renegotiated their salary, even a year or two later, and have only received their true value at a new workplace.

Re: Ask HN: Typical Startup or Abuse?

#12

Post by datawalke »

jteo wrote: post #8

You're talented and hardworking. Stop taking this crap and ask him to meet your reasonable demands or leave. I'm sure someone on HN here would be more than glad to hire you for another startup.

Thank you for the kind words.

If anyone on HN is hiring or looking to keep some extra talent in mind I would love to talk to you. I am very good at a select few things: UI Design, PHP (Specifically CakePHP), XHTML/CSS, and Problem Solving. I am also okay and very comfortable with Subversion and MySQL.I have a passion for the web and automation. You can contact me via HN or at: nowjobhunting@gmail.com

Re: Ask HN: Typical Startup or Abuse?

#13

Post by ct »

datawalke wrote: post #7
patio11 wrote: post #2

I realize that feelings of loyalty to an employer can skew one's perspective on things. (Oh boy, do I.) You need to hear someone say this, so I'll be a bit blunt: 1) You are being drastically underpaid relative to your market worth. 2) The fact of you being underpaid will cause material hardship for your wife and children. 3) Your boss is exploiting you. Illegally, to boot. 4) Your boss will not stop exploiting you.…

Thank you for the bluntness, at times -- especially now, I think it is needed. I have been in this position twice before where I have been debating what to do in terms of leaving/staying. However this time is different. I have never felt a depression like I have over the past two weeks. Mentally commiting myself is something I believe I can take hold of. My main issue and worry will be finding a new employer. The are…

Start applying for contracting jobs that let you work remotely.

And start right this minute. Good luck!

Re: Ask HN: Typical Startup or Abuse?

#14

Post by RBerenguel »

datawalke wrote: post #5
chrisclark1729 wrote: post #3

That seems rough. I'm actually going through a similar (albeit not as extreme) situation, which is why I'm at home on a Saturday night trying to generate leads for my freelance business. Two major points from me: First, you shouldn't get angry. You're there of your own volition and have to make the best of your situation. I know it's rough to hear, but getting angry will just waste your time and make it harder to be…

Thank you for your advice. Along with doing this business I do run a fairly good freelance business to make up for the lack of pay. The freelance work is what really makes me happy. The clients are always great and seem to love the attention I give them and the work I generate for them. However it does make it a bit hard mentally and physically for me and my family. Getting home at six, seeing my family for three or…

Can't you witch to working full-time in your freelancing? I don't know if you can get more clients straight away, maybe (if your relation is good enough with them) you can ask your current clients for work recommendations, bootstrapping even more your full-time freelancing.

I don't know the legalities and other related things aside, but I would make a rebellion, although you look in the worst position (you are being paid the same as a fresh recruit, come on!)... Walking straight to the boss and telling him either to raise pays or everybody leaves could be quite effective. And of course, 8 people talking shit about a startup can build quite a lot of momentum to keep him from getting any more job candidates/clients.

Re: Ask HN: Typical Startup or Abuse?

#15

Post by datawalke »

wisty wrote: post #9
datawalke wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"As for the "he has not taken any pay" crap, he has equity, you do not your only reward is your pay check in that situation." Very correct. On several occasions I have been promised equity. At first as a compensation for my pay, and then as vested. However none of this ever came into existence. Every time I brought it up again he would keep putting it off. But then in any discussions for a raise or anything to that d…

Sorry, but I doubt that the guy is actually going to give you any equity. You could say you are leaving unless he gives you an offer on paper (which should include some notion of the percent of the company you will get - if he just offers 100,000 shares you can bet he will set total shares to 100,000,000,000 to screw you out of owning a real chunk), but he'll probably call your bluff. As another poster suggested, get…

Agreed.

Originally he brought this up and I was thinking like 10 to 20%. He then said something to the degree of a half percent per year.

I unfortunately did sign a non-compete. The founder has pretty tight connections within this industry. It would be hard to steal clients to begin with -- I make sure all of the work is perfect and the clients are happy. I also would feel unethical doing so.

Re: Ask HN: Typical Startup or Abuse?

#16

Post by carbocation »

datawalke wrote: post #12
jteo wrote: post #8

You're talented and hardworking. Stop taking this crap and ask him to meet your reasonable demands or leave. I'm sure someone on HN here would be more than glad to hire you for another startup.

Thank you for the kind words. If anyone on HN is hiring or looking to keep some extra talent in mind I would love to talk to you. I am very good at a select few things: UI Design, PHP (Specifically CakePHP), XHTML/CSS, and Problem Solving. I am also okay and very comfortable with Subversion and MySQL.I have a passion for the web and automation. You can contact me via HN or at: nowjobhunting@gmail.com

May I suggest creating a throwaway Gmail account for this purpose and removing your real email address in order to prevent your employer from finding this via a trivial Google search?

Re: Ask HN: Typical Startup or Abuse?

#17

Post by datawalke »

RBerenguel wrote: post #14
datawalke wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for your advice. Along with doing this business I do run a fairly good freelance business to make up for the lack of pay. The freelance work is what really makes me happy. The clients are always great and seem to love the attention I give them and the work I generate for them. However it does make it a bit hard mentally and physically for me and my family. Getting home at six, seeing my family for three or…

Can't you witch to working full-time in your freelancing? I don't know if you can get more clients straight away, maybe (if your relation is good enough with them) you can ask your current clients for work recommendations, bootstrapping even more your full-time freelancing. I don't know the legalities and other related things aside, but I would make a rebellion, although you look in the worst position (you are being…

I do believe life is a good deal of weighing risks and taking them at a period of time. Jumping right off to freelancing would be too uncertain at the moment. Bills come to around $1,500/mo. Freelancing at the moment generates around $900-$1200/mo. But I currently only have the bandwidth to handle 1 or 2 projects per month.

On the rebellion side I would not feel ethical doing so. I don't want this guy's business to crash and burn. It does honestly provide a solution to a need in the industry and the product is of high quality. As much as I sometimes wish I was, I'm not that much of a dick to cause trouble. (Plus there may be some movement there of a lawsuit or something that would make me overly nervous.) I do have a feeling however that me leaving this company will have a snowball effect on the others there.

Re: Ask HN: Typical Startup or Abuse?

#18

Post by datawalke »

carbocation wrote: post #16
datawalke wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for the kind words. If anyone on HN is hiring or looking to keep some extra talent in mind I would love to talk to you. I am very good at a select few things: UI Design, PHP (Specifically CakePHP), XHTML/CSS, and Problem Solving. I am also okay and very comfortable with Subversion and MySQL.I have a passion for the web and automation. You can contact me via HN or at: nowjobhunting@gmail.com

May I suggest creating a throwaway Gmail account for this purpose and removing your real email address in order to prevent your employer from finding this via a trivial Google search?

Good catch, thank you. The email address was unknown in this realm, but still could easily be connected to me with a little research. Took your advice and created one. Thank you.

Re: Ask HN: Typical Startup or Abuse?

#19

Post by datawalke »

ct wrote: post #13
datawalke wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for the bluntness, at times -- especially now, I think it is needed. I have been in this position twice before where I have been debating what to do in terms of leaving/staying. However this time is different. I have never felt a depression like I have over the past two weeks. Mentally commiting myself is something I believe I can take hold of. My main issue and worry will be finding a new employer. The are…

Start applying for contracting jobs that let you work remotely. And start right this minute. Good luck!

Working on updating a few resume and portfolio items now. Thank you for the good luck!

Re: Ask HN: Typical Startup or Abuse?

#20

Post by bensummers »

datawalke wrote: post #17
RBerenguel wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't you witch to working full-time in your freelancing? I don't know if you can get more clients straight away, maybe (if your relation is good enough with them) you can ask your current clients for work recommendations, bootstrapping even more your full-time freelancing. I don't know the legalities and other related things aside, but I would make a rebellion, although you look in the worst position (you are being…

I do believe life is a good deal of weighing risks and taking them at a period of time. Jumping right off to freelancing would be too uncertain at the moment. Bills come to around $1,500/mo. Freelancing at the moment generates around $900-$1200/mo. But I currently only have the bandwidth to handle 1 or 2 projects per month. On the rebellion side I would not feel ethical doing so. I don't want this guy's business to c…

If the product is as good as you say it is, there should be plenty of money to pay well. And paying people well should increase the quality further: if you don't have to worry about basic needs you've got more bandwidth for being technically excellent.

Don't feel bad about 'rebellion', loyalty should be both ways and respect must be earned.

Stand up for yourself!

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