The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure • Hacker News Board

Re: The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure

#331

Post by taurath » Wed, May 31, 2017, 9:12 PM UTC

deanCommie wrote: post #296

lghh wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And America's love affair with the automobile is a well-known abusive relationship that America will never have the courage to leave. It's pretty much impossible to leave this relationship unless you live in one of the larger US cities. If you live in a suburb, rural area, or city that's not in the top 10-15 in terms of size there's literally no other option that exists or that could easily exist.

You don't think people in Europe live in suburban or rural areas? The difference is networks of buses and trains that the countries and cities invested in over decades. America went in another direction, and looks no closer to changing it's mind.

Most of Europe doesn't live in what Americans would call suburbs, but villages. They're dense where people live and have train and bus service conveniently, because in postwar Europe there were a lot fewer cars. They also zone such that there's a dense living area surrounded by farmland - when that farmland becomes all housing thenyoull have American style suburbs, but few in Europe want that because it's harder to get where you want to go.

Re: The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure

#332

Post by watwut » Wed, May 31, 2017, 9:13 PM UTC

TulliusCicero wrote: post #209

mason240 wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're free to live how you choose, but don't force others to live how you see fit.

Agreed. America's forced dominance of the automobile is pretty grossly unethical. Freedom means the ability to make meaningful choices, and if biking is incredibly dangerous, transit is slow and infrequent, and nothing is within walking distance, then those are hardly meaningful options, are they? Building to support multiple modes of transportation is the freedom-loving thing to do. Want to walk? Go for it! Transit?…

Biking is not "incredibly dangerous". It plenty safe. It is healthy. It however sometimes slows down cars and some drivers are then motivated to frame biking as dangerous activity to stop it.

But really really really, biking is not incredibly dangerous.

Re: The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure

#333

Post by imgabe » Wed, May 31, 2017, 9:16 PM UTC

joshuaheard wrote: post #205

imgabe wrote: post #80

I don't know the answers, but as someone who works in the industry (on the design side). I think a big unmentioned factor is probably liability and the prospect of litigation. If you look at old blueprints for projects in the past, they are a LOT less detailed. They had to be, because it was physically more difficult to produce them since they had to be drawn by hand. A lot was left to the contractor to figure out in…

There is two problems with this theory. The first is that governments have immunity from litigation. They can only be sued where they consent to the lawsuit. The second is that in most states, employee-related injury claims must proceed through a worker's compensation system outside the normal litigation channel where the costs are much less. I always say there are not too many lawsuits, but too many laws. Legislatur…

The government is not the entity that would be sued, this is not about personal injury claims. The contractor or design engineer would be the one who gets sued for design flaws or implementation flaws that lead to costly re-work. They would be getting sued by the government or the owner in the case of a building.

Re: The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure

#334

Post by devoply » Wed, May 31, 2017, 9:17 PM UTC

imgabe wrote: post #80

I don't know the answers, but as someone who works in the industry (on the design side). I think a big unmentioned factor is probably liability and the prospect of litigation. If you look at old blueprints for projects in the past, they are a LOT less detailed. They had to be, because it was physically more difficult to produce them since they had to be drawn by hand. A lot was left to the contractor to figure out in…

Sounds like the future of software development to me.

Re: The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure

#335

Post by frenchy » Wed, May 31, 2017, 9:17 PM UTC

Severian wrote: post #328

rcconf wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Canada, renting a car when you're under 25 years old is pretty annoying. It's usually an extra $25 a day and that's what turned me off to renting. Some rental companies won't even let you get a car if you're under 25. It's actually a function of age, so I'm currently 24 and in theory, it should be cheaper now.. so let's do some blanket math to entertain your idea. - I drive my car only on weekends, so Friday - Sun…

$4000 in repairs a year? What kind of clunker are you driving?

A BMW apparently. Isn't it well known that these are the most expensive cars to maintain?

Re: The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure

#336

Post by brookside » Wed, May 31, 2017, 9:17 PM UTC

chc wrote: post #226

karmelapple wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The abusive relationship love-affair is the best explanation I've ever heard of cars in the USA. Just like a an abusive relationship, the car love affair still produces some good things. It's not all dark and dreary. "I hate that he comes home drunk and hits me, but he's so loving and apologetic the next morning." "I hate that I get so stressed from my daily commute, but being able to drive to the countryside on the…

Can we try to get through one thread on HN without frothing at the mouth about how much we hate cars? Message received, you happen to be in a situation where you don't need a car — I am genuinely happy for you, as well as envious. But it is not necessary or helpful for someone to bang on about it in every single thread that has anything to do with building stuff. It doesn't help anything, and it just annoys people wh…

Society is not moving away from a car-based infrastructure. The majority of people have no issues with a car-based society.

MORE people need to be making a stink. If this annoys you...sorry not sorry.

Re: The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure

#337

Post by deong » Wed, May 31, 2017, 9:18 PM UTC

kevinnk wrote: post #181

pikzen wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or do like every sensible country does, cap individual donations, forbid companies from donating, create a government entity whose goal is to ensure donations are respecting those rules, candidates having to deliver their list of donors to said entity. Make it actually illegal to get private money from PACs and other complex setups. And eventually reimburse part of the campaign past a certain percentage of votes. But…

Almost all of those things are already implemented in the US. > cap individual donations Direct contribution cap for individuals is $2,700 > forbid companies from donating Direct contributions are not allowed, although PACs can give up to $5000. > create a government entity whose goal is to ensure donations are respecting those rules Aka the FEC > candidates having to deliver their list of donors to said entity Alrea…

They're implemented, but the rise of the SuperPAC after Citizens United more or less makes the regulations pointless. I can't contribute more than $2700 to a campaign, but I can contribute $27,000,000 to a PAC that requires only the thinnest imaginable separation from the campaign. Basically, as long as the candidate isn't on TV personally endorsing my check, we're good.

Re: The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure

#338

Post by Mz » Wed, May 31, 2017, 9:19 PM UTC

watwut wrote: post #332

TulliusCicero wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. America's forced dominance of the automobile is pretty grossly unethical. Freedom means the ability to make meaningful choices, and if biking is incredibly dangerous, transit is slow and infrequent, and nothing is within walking distance, then those are hardly meaningful options, are they? Building to support multiple modes of transportation is the freedom-loving thing to do. Want to walk? Go for it! Transit?…

Biking is not "incredibly dangerous". It plenty safe. It is healthy. It however sometimes slows down cars and some drivers are then motivated to frame biking as dangerous activity to stop it. But really really really, biking is not incredibly dangerous.

In some areas, it is quite dangerous due to a lack of bike infrastructure and the driving habits of locals. My ex husband sometimes commuted to work by bike and often bitched about this.

Re: The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure

#339

Post by imgabe » Wed, May 31, 2017, 9:19 PM UTC

akshatpradhan wrote: post #107

imgabe wrote: post #80

I don't know the answers, but as someone who works in the industry (on the design side). I think a big unmentioned factor is probably liability and the prospect of litigation. If you look at old blueprints for projects in the past, they are a LOT less detailed. They had to be, because it was physically more difficult to produce them since they had to be drawn by hand. A lot was left to the contractor to figure out in…

>This means every time there's a question, it has to be submitted through a formal process, tracked, answered, documented. I don't know why you think proper change control is a bad thing. In both software and systems engineering you submit change requests that are tracked, reviewed, assessed for risk, approved and documented. You do this to create an audit trail to identify "how we got here". Any concerns? It's docum…

I'm not saying changes shouldn't be documented. I'm saying the people on the ground doing the work should be more empowered to use their judgement. They can do that and still document what gets changed.

As it stands now, some unforeseen circumstance in the field will necessitate a minor modification to the design. The contractor knows perfectly well what needs to be done, but instead of simply doing it, they will ask the designers to tell them to do it, so they aren't the ones responsible for it. The designer of course can't simply rubber stamp whatever the contractor says, so they have to spend time figuring out what the issue is and whether the contractor's solution is adequate. All that adds up.

Re: The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure

#340

Post by crusso » Wed, May 31, 2017, 9:19 PM UTC

wahern wrote: post #295

imgabe wrote: post #80

I don't know the answers, but as someone who works in the industry (on the design side). I think a big unmentioned factor is probably liability and the prospect of litigation. If you look at old blueprints for projects in the past, they are a LOT less detailed. They had to be, because it was physically more difficult to produce them since they had to be drawn by hand. A lot was left to the contractor to figure out in…

Those liability problems exist in every advanced Western country. It's true that litigation is more costly in common law countries, in some cases twice as high, and that this cost can be internalized in the ways you suggest. But those costs only account for single-digit percentages overall. What you describe could also be understood as an inefficient way of organization that is peculiar to the United States, and a by…

But those costs only account for single-digit percentages overall

How do you know that? It seems like a really difficult number to account for like the cost of medical lawsuits. Sure, you can look at malpractice insurance, legal fees, and damages awarded to plaintiffs - but how do you properly count the extra tests, procedures, pharmaceuticals, man-hours, etc. that result from the increased defensive posture of doctors and hospitals?