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Why do so few people major in computer science?

danwang.co

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Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#611

Post by CydeWeys »

CossieRay wrote: post #524
dagw wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but if you have been playing around with environment variables in your OS since you where 8 years old the problem becomes a lot easier to troubleshoot, compared to someone who has never heard of environment variables.

I'm a bit interested with your comment. Do we have 8 year olds playing around with environment variables in the OS? I'm curious because I never thought that could be possible

I remember having to muck about with autoexec.bat files when I was SIX (this was a quarter century ago) because our 386 desktop had enough memory to run either Windows 3.1 or the CD-ROM drive, but not both simultaneously. Granted, I was just copying instructions that my dad had written into a workbook, not writing the file myself.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#612

Post by hasenj »

lgessler wrote: post #477
hasenj wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard to believe a person of high IQ is not going to be well-read and/or well educated. The only point about this test is it's specific to native speakers of English, but if you were born in North America than it surely applies to you even if your parents speak another language.

> It's hard to believe a person of high IQ is not going to be well-read and/or well educated. What of high IQ individuals who are born into low- or middle-class families, who didn't have their parents read them 19th century British novels, and therefore don't know what a dowager is?

They would go to the library of their own accord.

You don't need your parents to read things for you.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#613

Post by verall »

brandonmenc wrote: post #564
watwut wrote: post #561

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If a kid can't type "how do computers work" in google, they probably won't become a programmer. Are we really wringing our hands over that? If a kid cant type "how human body works" in google, they probably won't become a biologists. Somehow, being constantly surrounded by all those bodies and dogs and grass they did not learned biology. Except that they come to college and do learn. But realistically, "how do comp…

> What does that question have to do with building sofware? Like, real world software with real world homework that suddenly out of nowhere expects you to have skills that were not taught previously. You're way beyond the scope of the original discussion. Someone suggested people would drop out of CS due to the grief factor of - for example - breakage due to missing semicolons. Another person then suggests that maybe…

> screwing around in a browser-based programming sandbox (there are tons), is something only wealthy people with college educated parents can do

Having the free time with access to a computer to "screw around" on and knowledge of the existence of browser sand boxes are absolutely tied to class.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#614

Post by dagw »

brandonmenc wrote: post #564
watwut wrote: post #561

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If a kid can't type "how do computers work" in google, they probably won't become a programmer. Are we really wringing our hands over that? If a kid cant type "how human body works" in google, they probably won't become a biologists. Somehow, being constantly surrounded by all those bodies and dogs and grass they did not learned biology. Except that they come to college and do learn. But realistically, "how do comp…

> What does that question have to do with building sofware? Like, real world software with real world homework that suddenly out of nowhere expects you to have skills that were not taught previously. You're way beyond the scope of the original discussion. Someone suggested people would drop out of CS due to the grief factor of - for example - breakage due to missing semicolons. Another person then suggests that maybe…

Another person then suggests that maybe it's a good idea that CS majors have some experience programming before they enter the program.

Why not offer two tracks? People who have never programmed before have to take a 6 month intro to computers course, that people who know how to program can skip. The people who skip the course can then either use the extra time to take other courses or graduate earlier.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#615

Post by ck425 »

brandonmenc wrote: post #531
watwut wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Math majors are expected to know high school math. You can literally know exactly that and succeed. If you wish to get ahead of competition, you know exactly what to do and exactly what is measured. CS does not have such clarity of expectations. I knew basics, because of journals my father bought. Since I knew basics, the teacher shown me some competitions - from then on I just went with the flow. Had my father not b…

> Raspberry pi is likely not and you don't know it exists. If a kid can't type "how do computers work" in google, they probably won't become a programmer. Are we really wringing our hands over that? > All the myths around cs tend reinforce such nonsense. There's another bit of nonsense around CS that a lot of people here believe - that there are all these secretly good programmers out there who just don't know they'r…

You're also missing the social aspect, particularly for girls. Depending on your personality, friendship groups, culture and Family it's often not socially acceptable to spend your free time as a teenager hacking away at stuff. You forget that those of us who are happy to spend those years in our bedrooms hacking away are weird. If you're a geeky boy you can get away with it, some folk may even encourage it. If you're a girl not so much.

The idea that we block off CS as a subject for only those who've taught themselves some programming is absurd and elitist. While we may expect Math students to know Math before Uni, it so happens that 99% of high schools teach the level of Math we expect them to know. In a lot of countries it's compulsory. Same goes with most of the sciences, we expect the level that schools will teach. Unfortunately most schools don't teach programming, and those that do often don't do it well.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#616

Post by Scea91 »

gozur88 wrote: post #569
ghaff wrote: post #487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many engineering fields (including CS in some contexts) have a huge dependency on experimental setups that are "temperamental" at best much of the time and/or dependent on someone else's experimental work and other hardware that doesn't always perform according to spec, etc. As someone with degrees in non-CS engineering fields, I mostly find the idea that programming on a stable computer has a high frustration/grief…

That was my reaction too. You don't know frustration as an undergrad until your correctly designed circuit is behaving oddly because one of your components is damaged in a nonobvious way. I found the CS classes to be relaxing by comparison. Works every time as long as I get the code right? Sign me up.

The damaged component is pretty similar to a bug in a library.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#617

Post by ajc-sorin »

usmeteora wrote: post #489
PretzelFisch wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My Cousin smart kid had to come over at midnight because he had his first java assignment outside the ide. Couldn't compile because class path was not defined right on windows. Things like that scare people or pop their confidence.

to be fair, I've been coding for 8 years and have never coded in a Windows operating system outside of an IDE, and in general I don't use either, and have not since Computer Science 1. For a job, I had to get python working on Windows, and it took me a few days to get it in stalled correctly on Windows. Even after years of coding experience. The issue with Windows is it is designed to explicitly hide the backend func…

This is really valuable insight. Thank you for sharing this!

If you don't mind me asking, did you apply this approach to specific programming languages? I'm curious which ones you tried to learned and ended up sticking with, and why.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#618

Post by kazinator »

cr0sh wrote: post #588
Legion wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Logo is great and all, but we're not talking about beginning programming for kids, we're talking about CS degrees. At some point between Logo and bachelor's degree, you run face-first into that complexity, which is the "wall" the commenter atop this thread was referring to.

> Logo is great and all, but we're not talking about beginning programming for kids, we're talking about CS degrees. I'd be willing to bet you could create a CS course using nothing but Logo - and it would probably be better for students than what currently exists. In his book "Mindstorms", Papert discusses the faulty idea that Logo is only for children, and that it isn't a language that can be used to develop comple…

> Logo is pretty close to Lisp in its functionality.

Is it? Quote from the Logo Manual, 1974:

All complete LOGO statements are imperatives, so that an operation cannot stand by itself. If you type SUM 17 26, Logo responds with the error message YOU DON'T SAY WHAT TO DO WITH 43. In contrast PRINT SUM 17 26 is a complete statement. The computer will print 43.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#619

Post by hx87 »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #527
hx87 wrote: post #498

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe because in the USA, you don't "apply for a degree" at the undergraduate level? You apply to be at the university full stop, or at most an honors program.

So, you do modules or somesuch; presumably they have pre-requisites that work in largely the same way? Like for non high-school subjects "read chapters 1-4 of 'intro to $subject' and have a grade C or above on $exam"? How do you manage expectations for courses/modules/whatever from both sides (teacher:student) without such things.

You simply declare a major/concentration and register for classes in the appropriate departments. If you get acceptable grades in those classes you are allowed to continue.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#620

Post by pbhjpbhj »

hx87 wrote: post #619
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #527

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, you do modules or somesuch; presumably they have pre-requisites that work in largely the same way? Like for non high-school subjects "read chapters 1-4 of 'intro to $subject' and have a grade C or above on $exam"? How do you manage expectations for courses/modules/whatever from both sides (teacher:student) without such things.

You simply declare a major/concentration and register for classes in the appropriate departments. If you get acceptable grades in those classes you are allowed to continue.

Isn't "declaring a major" almost synonymous with applying for a degree, presumably the declared major in this case would be "computer science", so requiring some programming knowledge for those declaring that major would be possible?

In theory can one easily go to a USA Uni based on relatively unrelated abilities - lets say history and cooking? - and leave with a degree in Electronic Engineering? If there are no subject-based pre-reqs why does one need to declare a major, or is that done later?

My UK degree was modular so I could have done something quite similar, but I was assessed for entry based on abilities pertinent to a nominated degree (not the one I ended up with as it happens). Modules still had [relatively loose, unassessed] pre-reqs such as reading particular books or understanding specific concepts.

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