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Thoughts on Tokens

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Re: Thoughts on Tokens

#61
post #52
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the idea is that people have to spend the tokens to use the network and thus they buy tokens from early adopters. https://coincenter.org/entry/what-are-appcoins

Ya, I thought of that but that doesn't really make sense to me either. Open source projects tend to be free to use. Under this plan you need a token. Which costs money. That's a big change! Kinda sounds like they're saying that if you change your open source project to a proprietary software project you can get people to pay for it. Now that may be true (for some projects at least) but that's fundamentally changing t…

Something like Golem might fall into this category. It's a project that allows you to use tokens to trade computation time on other people's machines. The software is open source and you could probably set up your own network that uses your own tokens, but likely most users will buy and sell computation at the network the founders set up.

Re: Thoughts on Tokens

#62
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ya, I thought of that but that doesn't really make sense to me either. Open source projects tend to be free to use. Under this plan you need a token. Which costs money. That's a big change! Kinda sounds like they're saying that if you change your open source project to a proprietary software project you can get people to pay for it. Now that may be true (for some projects at least) but that's fundamentally changing t…

Something like Golem might fall into this category. It's a project that allows you to use tokens to trade computation time on other people's machines. The software is open source and you could probably set up your own network that uses your own tokens, but likely most users will buy and sell computation at the network the founders set up.

That's different though. That's paying for a service (compute time). Not somehow getting money for an open source software library.

Re: Thoughts on Tokens

#63
post #52
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the idea is that people have to spend the tokens to use the network and thus they buy tokens from early adopters. https://coincenter.org/entry/what-are-appcoins

Ya, I thought of that but that doesn't really make sense to me either. Open source projects tend to be free to use. Under this plan you need a token. Which costs money. That's a big change! Kinda sounds like they're saying that if you change your open source project to a proprietary software project you can get people to pay for it. Now that may be true (for some projects at least) but that's fundamentally changing t…

I don't think app coins/tokens are intended for traditional software that runs in isolation. The proponents of this stuff are talking about P2P networks where other computers provide service to you (e.g. storing your data), so the software may be open source but the service provided by the network is not free.

Of course, some hustlers may try to use app coins in a cynical, Adobe-like business model where you have to pay rent to run software on your own computer and they may be justifiably rebuked.

Re: Thoughts on Tokens

#64
post #46

If the only reason to buy a token is because you expect to sell it later at a greater price, then this is known as a pyramid scheme, not investment. This will end the same way as all other schemes that rely on continual capital gains: collapse when people want to withdraw their profits, turning capital gains into capital losses, and thus revealing that there was never any future profit to be had (unless you were luck…

> If the only reason to buy a token is because you expect to sell it later at a greater price, then this is known as a pyramid scheme, not investment.

I don't agree with this. Would you classify Google stock a pyramid scheme? You get zero dividend, zero voting rights, etc. etc. The only utility of owning a Google share is to sell it later when it's worth more. An important difference is that Google generates value to back its increasing stock price, whereas pyramid schemes do not.

Re: Thoughts on Tokens

#65

However, when considered as an alternative to classic equity financing, token sales yield a >100X increase in the available base of buyers and a >1000X improvement in the time to liquidity over traditional methods for startup finance. The three reasons why: a 30X increase in US buyers, a 20–25X increase in international buyers, and a 1000X improvement in time-to-liquidity. these token sales are successful because peo…

Bitcoin has grown "not that much" from 2013 you say

Re: Thoughts on Tokens

#66
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Claiming that adults making their own decision to buy the equivalent of a digital collectible, is a scam, and should be prohibited with long stretches of time in prison for those who take part, is why income disparity continues increasing [1], why the financial sector is dominated by a handful of corporate giants, and why it costs $6 million to do an IPO [2]. Attitudes like yours are not consistent with the principle…

> Attitudes like yours are not consistent with the principles of liberal democracy, which rest on the idea that we should be free to do with our body and property whatever we wish, as long as it violates no one's right to the same. If so, then I'd say it's clear those principles (as presented by you) are wrong. They don't take into account the fact that human beings are not independent, perfectly rational actors. Dec…

>They don't take into account the fact that human beings are not independent, perfectly rational actors.

and

>That's the practical reality of fallible humans with finite computational capacity.

and

>Fortunately, laws do recognize that fact. A lot of them exist to shield people from being predictably exploited.

And who votes in these people who enact these laws? Other people. They are not always rational, especially when dealing with issues of enormous complexity, that obfuscates the effects of policy.

These laws will inevitably be used to stifle competition to vested interests, in the name of consumer protection. See [1] above. Governing a complex society composed of hundreds of millions of people through cookie cutter rules on what non-coercive interactions are exploitive is not practical.

The spontaneous order of a decentralized, non-coerced society works surprisingly well. For example, after the Mt Gox insolvency, people in the cryptocurrency space wisened up, and stopped using Bitcoin exchanges that didn't use the highest security standards, like cold wallet storage.

Yet the Wild West days of Bitcoin exchanges were a necessary phase at a time when the Bitcoin market cap was less than $20 million and no VC company in the world would have funded a Bitcoin exchange, so exchanges run by amateurs were the best we could hope for.

In other words, had there been regulations requiring millions in capital to start a Bitcoin exchange, we never would have had a nascent exchange industry in the first place, and Bitcoin would never have gotten off the ground.

As the market grew, and venture capital began flowing into exchanges, those exchanges became more professionally run and more secure. This was a natural evolution that didn't need to be guided by top-down decree. Also, the emergence of security standards that effectively protected against major hacks was a result of trial and error, and the culture within the cryptocurrency market of retail traders and investors evolving to become more vigilant. This is a more robust situation than a market of sheep consumers corralled by regulators who become the target of rent-seeking parties looking to use regulatory barriers to stifle competition.

A couple of Bitcoin exchanges in the US were actually shut down in the early days, due to regulatory enforcement action, which contributed to MtGox dominating the market. Absent those regulatory restrictions, venture capital would have began investing in US based exchanges much sooner, and thus we would have had professionally run exchanges sooner than we did.

In conclusion, regulations destroy innovation and the development of industries, and the lost benefits of that outweigh the short-term harm caused by an industry's growing pains.

There is good reason societies that adopt liberal democratic principles have historically prospered relative to those subscribing to paternalistic ideologies. Thankfully with cryptocurrencies, industries operate more on liberal democratic principles, whether the political institutions want them to or not.

Re: Thoughts on Tokens

#67

However, when considered as an alternative to classic equity financing, token sales yield a >100X increase in the available base of buyers and a >1000X improvement in the time to liquidity over traditional methods for startup finance. The three reasons why: a 30X increase in US buyers, a 20–25X increase in international buyers, and a 1000X improvement in time-to-liquidity. these token sales are successful because peo…

Stopping investment scams like the current ICO bubble is exactly the reason the SEC exists. It is an absolute certainty that this party is going to end in regulation and it's also likely that a bunch of people will end up in jail. The only real question is how long it will take the regulators to figure out which one of them has jurisdiction here. I say this as an early Bitcoin investor and current holder. Bitcoin was…

How is it a scam if there is instant liquidity right after the sale in most cases?

Re: Thoughts on Tokens

#68
post #63
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ya, I thought of that but that doesn't really make sense to me either. Open source projects tend to be free to use. Under this plan you need a token. Which costs money. That's a big change! Kinda sounds like they're saying that if you change your open source project to a proprietary software project you can get people to pay for it. Now that may be true (for some projects at least) but that's fundamentally changing t…

I don't think app coins/tokens are intended for traditional software that runs in isolation. The proponents of this stuff are talking about P2P networks where other computers provide service to you (e.g. storing your data), so the software may be open source but the service provided by the network is not free. Of course, some hustlers may try to use app coins in a cynical, Adobe-like business model where you have to…

Ya, I agree with you. Weird that the authors of the essay linked here stretched things significantly further.

Re: Thoughts on Tokens

#69
post #64
post #46

If the only reason to buy a token is because you expect to sell it later at a greater price, then this is known as a pyramid scheme, not investment. This will end the same way as all other schemes that rely on continual capital gains: collapse when people want to withdraw their profits, turning capital gains into capital losses, and thus revealing that there was never any future profit to be had (unless you were luck…

> If the only reason to buy a token is because you expect to sell it later at a greater price, then this is known as a pyramid scheme, not investment. I don't agree with this. Would you classify Google stock a pyramid scheme? You get zero dividend, zero voting rights, etc. etc. The only utility of owning a Google share is to sell it later when it's worth more. An important difference is that Google generates value to…

You're right, I went to far classifying this as a pyramid scheme. My point was to separate investment from speculation. I believe we can categorically separate the two.

With investment we can have win/win/win situations. For example: an investor purchases a bond with a yield (thus making a profit), the issuer -- a producer of some good -- uses the capital to buy more efficient machinery, thus enabling him to lower costs and sell more product (thus making a profit), and the end result for the consumer of this good/product is a decrease in price (a net profit also).

While speculation does have economic value, the profits made by speculators is zero-sum: those who bet correctly take money away from those who bet wrongly. As such, it's categorically different from investment, as outlined above.

On further thought, though, perhaps this classification of speculation only applies to commodities, and doesn't make sense for stock. After all, instead of paying out dividends, companies can just use this money to buy back stock, thus transferring profits to investors in this manner instead.

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