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Why do so few people major in computer science?

danwang.co

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Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#541
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Off and on, I do contract work for oil companies and I can say with some certainty that it's a pretty hostile environment toward women. Let me give some examples to see if I can build a picture. On the technology end of things, I used to go to the conference SEG, which a lot of deals for technology are made on the side. I've not been for the last 4-5 years, but they used to be really aggressive about their use of boo…

Alternative hypothesis, with regard to roughnecking, provided by Occam's Razor and biology: https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/4vcxd0/alm...

In current practice, there's plenty of roughnecking work that involves action beyond slinging pipe. There's a huge amount of monitoring, surveying, and other engineering work that has nothing to do with physical strength.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#542

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If anything, it's a disadvantage IME: the implicit lessons of the iDevice are that the world is made of non-user-serviceable black boxes that cannot be recombined to make anything substantially different than what you started with, and if one does ever manage to peek under the hood (and why would one do that, any more than they do with their fridge or their TV?) one sees only immutable non-deconstructible complexity.…

I totally agree with this. The mass produced handheld computers such as smartphones and tablets, which outnumber desktops and laptops in personal ownership worldwide, will absolutely not help the newer generations with learning how computers work. When I was a tween I was building my own desktop, installing drivers, trouble shooting driver issues, trawling log files, and even dabbled in a little bit of python here or…

I am so glad that there are enough people around to support a healthy PC components market. I build 1 or 2 per year and I haven't felt the supply dwindle yet.

It is a shame that this is no longer the default option, but it can be done for people wanting to get an educational experience. I wonder how easy it would be to build a computer with a little kid?

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#543

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If anything, it's a disadvantage IME: the implicit lessons of the iDevice are that the world is made of non-user-serviceable black boxes that cannot be recombined to make anything substantially different than what you started with, and if one does ever manage to peek under the hood (and why would one do that, any more than they do with their fridge or their TV?) one sees only immutable non-deconstructible complexity.…

I totally agree with this. The mass produced handheld computers such as smartphones and tablets, which outnumber desktops and laptops in personal ownership worldwide, will absolutely not help the newer generations with learning how computers work. When I was a tween I was building my own desktop, installing drivers, trouble shooting driver issues, trawling log files, and even dabbled in a little bit of python here or…

You forget that Arduino and Raspberry Pi exist now and fill that void quite nicely. If anything, I think it is far, far easier to learn the intangible CS skills today than at any time in the past. The one problem I see is with kids' motivation to do so, not with access to information or materials.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#544
post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I should have thought about beer money. But I was such an introverted geek. I do remember watching other people trying to figure out how to use a mouse or the most basic stuff. I've already studied algorithms and data structures and had a paying programming job. Most of the CS work seemed trivial but I did learn some math. The math did get hard so the degree was definitely not a breeze. Even with CS there were areas…

I don't think they have an advantage, as I've noticed that kids knowing their way around their phone are often completely lost when put in front of a computer. They never use the computer, they have everything in their phones. Compared to a computer, a phone is simple, and you aren't actually solving any problems while using it (you're just downloading and running apps). When you have a phone, however, there's no nee…

Again, Rasp Pi and the whole "maker" movement are mainstream. My daughter is in a STEM Middle School and she has done more things at age 11 than I did when I was 18! They're teaching Android game coding to kids age 10.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#545
post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That just sounds like the professor didn't teach them about Java classpath before telling them to use a CLI; or this kid didn't read the course materials.

Sure, but if you have been playing around with environment variables in your OS since you where 8 years old the problem becomes a lot easier to troubleshoot, compared to someone who has never heard of environment variables.

But that kind of information should just be in the instructions for the assignment. It's a problem with the instructor, is what I'm getting at.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#546
Great article. Thanks to Dan Wang for writing it.

My main difference in perspective with this article (I'm hesitant to call it a disagreement, because it's more a matter or perspective than any specific conclusion) is that I don't think people need to be consciously aware of market or societal forces and pressures to be powerfully influenced by them.

I think anyone who wonders why more people don't major in CS (as well as other fields claiming a "shortage") should read the chapter on pay and professions from Adam Smith's "Wealth of Nations". I don't think they need to read it and accept it without critical thought, just be aware of the perspective - that there are a huge number of inter-dependent factors, other than pay, that powerfully influence the desirability of a profession.

Here's a link:

http://geolib.com/smith.adam/won1-10.html

This is all pretty intuitive - if you want people to take on tedious, odious, or dishonorable work, you may have to pay them well.

I actually think CS, and programming, may be a more unpleasant profession than people recognize. Huge open offices, back visibility, SCRUM meetings that deny long term thinking and autonomy, constant technology churn, age-related employment issues, and, yes, specialized visas that mean employers can rely on captive employees who can't leave the field and have limited rights to leave their employer, all these things do mean that CS may be a much less desirable field for people with academic talent. Also - while wages are high, this may be the Silicon Valley effect. A job that pays an average of 120k, but plays this consistently in smaller, less expensive cities, may be more desirable than a job that pays 150k on average, but where 95% of the employment is concentrated in a place where the median price of a house is $1.2+ million.

Just for a dose or reality, a registered nurse in San Francisco earns more, at the median, than an application developer. That's a-ok by me! Nursing is a tough job. But if someone prefers to do good as a nurse and make more money than siting around fixing bugs in the latest javascript framework, come on, that's perfectly rational!

I really don't think young people need to have analyzed this to be influenced by it. There's a reason we call it the "invisible hand".

In short, if it is rational to avoid this field, that's probably enough to conclude that these are factors in deterring workers from it. I don't think you need to prove hyper-awareness specifically of these issues.

Keep in mind, people who are capable of learning to code and work in software development teams do have a high level of capacity for work and study. They have a lot of options. I'm not sure that software development, as a field, is all that competitive with the other things they can do.

In short, people may be behaving very rationally by avoiding this field.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#547
I don't understand the assumption that a software developer should study computer science to prepare for a career in designing, writing, and delivering computer software.

Consider the building trades. Employees in that industry don't study "Building Science". Architects study architecture. Engineers study engineering. Craftsmen in the various building trades study in apprenticeships.

Why not admit that computer scientists should study computer science (a valid and useful area of study in its own right) and instead develop a full-fledged degree program for the various skills involved in the software-development industry?

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#548

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't personally taken organic chemistry, but several of my friends who have taken both organic chemistry and algorithms have said that algorithms is by far the harder of the two. So I tend to disagree that biology and organic chemistry are harder than anything in CS.

Have degrees in both and agree. The amount of work require to get a B in data structures would get you an A+ in biochemistry. Physical Chemistry on the other hand...

Eh, my college girlfriend majored in Chemistry while I was CS and Math. P. Chem was certainly a huge challenge, but I never got the sense that she was smarter than me, just maybe more determined in certain ways and better at memorizing shit. She got a 4.0 and was valedictorian, but she dropped any elective classes if they looked like they would not result in an "A" for her--I especially remember her dropping Calc II, for example. So she got her 4.0 by successfully gaming the system, whereas I never got overly focused on grades as the ultimate marker of successful learning.

Btw, I have done quite well in life, not sure where she ended up; probably chasing some other kind of "grade" these days, lol.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#549
post #63

Slight note about Dan Wang picking 2005: That was the peak of CS degrees awarded because it's 4/5 years after the height of the dot-com bubble. So the upward bump in the mid-2000's is somewhat explainable as an anomaly. I think his point 1 is underrated. CS degrees are flat because aptitude is flat. You can compare CS degrees to other degrees over time at nsf.gov: https://www.nsf.gov/statistics/2016/nsb20161/#/report…

Interesting that in the nsf data it shows that during the 2000-2004 time frame the number of CS grads rose and then peaked in 2004, while the number of CS women grads during the same time frame was flat, and then dropped in 2004.

'04 was just post dot-com bubble, though. Sad if those numbers haven't picked up since then. We badly need people who are doers and not just rent seekers or mid-level functionaries.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#550

The grief factor of learning to code is on a different scale to every other major. One missing semicolon will take your whole tower down, and you realise this in the first day of practical exercises. Even if you are of the opinion that CS is math, and coding doesn't come into it, you will hit a coding wall early on. In fact, every exercise in CS has this problem. You add a new thing (eg inheritance), and it breaks. B…

"One missing semicolon will take your whole tower down, and you realize this in the first day of practical exercises." Isn't that what makes CS easier? You get immediate feedback. You know if it will be right or wrong before you even turn it in.

Yes and no. You can understand a concept 100% and execute it 99% and still have the program fail. In other engineering disciplines, that gets you a good grade. In CS classes it's a fail.

So you have to sit there and make sure it actually works. I'm not a programmer, but I took CS courses. Debugging your homework is fucking awful. I understand it's a skill necessary for programming, but it's awful. Especially when the bug is a mistake that is unrelated to the topic of the homework.

I remember pulling an all nighter trying to figure out why my problem set didn't diff correctly. I must have spent 20 hours on a single bug.

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