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Why do so few people major in computer science?

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Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#531

Post by brandonmenc »

watwut wrote: post #378
brandonmenc wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It also further entrenches the advantages of people who come from affluent backgrounds. If you can afford a video game console, you can afford a raspberry pi (or equivalent.) > We don't expect law students to have been amateur lawyers in high school No, but we expect math majors to have done some math before they get to college. I don't disagree with you that most people can be brought up to speed in less than a ye…

Math majors are expected to know high school math. You can literally know exactly that and succeed. If you wish to get ahead of competition, you know exactly what to do and exactly what is measured. CS does not have such clarity of expectations. I knew basics, because of journals my father bought. Since I knew basics, the teacher shown me some competitions - from then on I just went with the flow. Had my father not b…

> Raspberry pi is likely not and you don't know it exists.

If a kid can't type "how do computers work" in google, they probably won't become a programmer. Are we really wringing our hands over that?

> All the myths around cs tend reinforce such nonsense.

There's another bit of nonsense around CS that a lot of people here believe - that there are all these secretly good programmers out there who just don't know they're programmers because no one ever told them how to start, and that they might not even know what programming is because it's so difficult to get started.

I find it nearly impossible to believe that there are all these smart people out there, surrounded by technology, with hacking and computers in every TV show, with the President telling them to "learn how to code", Bill Gates' name dropped by rappers, Google in everyones' pocket - and no one is typing "how does my smartphone/videogame/internet work" and reading the results?

Like, who is still walking around like, "I got good grades in school and knew people could become doctors, but I didn't know people could make computers go! Why didn't anyone tell me?!"

Are there other problems keeping people from breaking into the industry? Absolutely. Is "not knowing where to look" one of them? There's no way that it can be, not anymore.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#532

Post by kamau »

na85 wrote: post #282
ikeyany wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe that being in the "engineering mindset" is at odds with what many people are used to. I think it's the culture that some see and get scared away from, even if that perception isn't 100% accurate. People interested in fixing CS "inclusivity" should address this first.

Given that computer science isn't engineering (they are distinct but different disciplines), can you elaborate on what you mean by the engineering mindset?

Not a dig...but questions like this one. I get what you are asking, but I think that people outside of the discipline would be thinking, "You know what I mean. Why so pedantic?"

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#533

Post by xur17 »

Retric wrote: post #444
scaryspooky wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's your point?

On the bleeding edge your going to have to deal with things like semicolon placement by compilation. I am not saying writing code on a test by pencil and paper should be the normal approach, just using an IDE 100% of the time is hardly nessisarily.

I'd agree that starting with a plain old text editor is probably the best approach. Remove as much of the magic as possible when you're first getting started, and then add it in once they understand the basics.

I learned java in high school as my first language, and I struggled to get the IDE properly set up - it definitely slowed down my understanding.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#534

Post by 01572 »

zaptheimpaler wrote: post #273
01572 wrote: post #216

To an audience of CS majors this will probably sound like trolling but honestly I have never used any software written by a "computer scientist" that I came to value and rely on -- software that I consciously chose to use. Whereas I have found such software on multiple ocassions written by mathematicians or persons in some other field, e.g., physics, etc. As a user of software , I do not believe that a computer scien…

If you've even used an operating system or the internet there are a hundred algorithms/datastructures/CS concepts at play. One example is consistent hashing used by CDNs such as Akamai, so indirectly almost any website you visit. All of the routing/control flow/congestion control algorithms that make internet work. Algorithms to wrap text on a website to a certain width. Algorithms to schedule processes on your OS, v…

My comment had a handful of upvotes over the holiday weekend then has been downvoted as the CS grads return to work.

I have long believed the weekend HN crowd is wiser than the weekday crowd.

I have also believed that CS may contribute to the urge to write "complicated software". Your admission reinforces this belief.

I like software that tries to avoid complexity. Any lazy person can write a complicated program, get it to compile and run. The world is full of such software. Consequently, it is nearly impossible to avoid. But that is different from consciously selecting it and we cannot infer that usage under these circumstances implies approval.

rk dewar, dmr, djb, a@kx, etc. none of them majored in CS as far as I know. Despite the lack of a CS "education", I still value and rely on what they produced. I consciously seek out such work.

The point of my comments is simple: a CS degree is not a prerequisite to writing great software. Call that a strawman if you like. I still think it is a point worth making when someone is blogging about low numbers of CS grads.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#535

Post by xeromal »

uncletaco wrote: post #479
Baeocystin wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There's a ton of Stupid Computer Shit we all know, mostly from messing around on our own time This, I think, is the core issue. Like most of us here, I started playing with computers as a young child, from a Timex Sinclair 1000 as a pre-teen to a Commodore 128 as a young teen, then an Amiga and beyond. It wasn't work, it was fun, a hobby. And more importantly, by the time I hit college, I had literally thousands of…

So my story is a little different. I didn't write my first program until I was in college and didn't even own a personal computer until I was going into my junior year in 2009. I had the advantage of having a department that assumed we were computer illiterate (I went to an HBCU in the late 00s: lots of low-income kids, very few had PCs of their own growing up, let alone college educated parents) so there were a lot…

Agreed. I think what's more important than tinkering with computers as a child is to just have willpower to stare at something for hours with no end in sight just to have a small breakthrough. Those breakthroughs, for me, almost seemed to reward me with little releases of endorphins like solving a puzzle.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#536

Post by brightball »

ashark wrote: post #221
lordnacho wrote: post #107

The grief factor of learning to code is on a different scale to every other major. One missing semicolon will take your whole tower down, and you realise this in the first day of practical exercises. Even if you are of the opinion that CS is math, and coding doesn't come into it, you will hit a coding wall early on. In fact, every exercise in CS has this problem. You add a new thing (eg inheritance), and it breaks. B…

I don't think it's even the programming that's the problem. There's a ton of Stupid Computer Shit we all know, mostly from messing around on our own time, that makes programming or doing anything else with computers much easier. A set of skills for navigating and troubleshooting issues, and a hard-earned intuition for where and how to look for answers. My CS program was really easy and I still don't know how people w…

I had a lot of that "SCS" experience from growing up, although in college CPSC 101 was my first experience with programming...and I hit that hypothetical wall really hard. I was worried I was going to have to change majors 2 months into the class. I still remember the moment when I was staring at code for about 3 hours on a bunk bed when it suddenly just made sense...and then I got A's in all of my CPSC classes for the rest of school.

I couldn't explain how to make it make sense if my life depended on it. It just happened.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#537

Post by uncletaco »

xeromal wrote: post #535
uncletaco wrote: post #479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So my story is a little different. I didn't write my first program until I was in college and didn't even own a personal computer until I was going into my junior year in 2009. I had the advantage of having a department that assumed we were computer illiterate (I went to an HBCU in the late 00s: lots of low-income kids, very few had PCs of their own growing up, let alone college educated parents) so there were a lot…

Agreed. I think what's more important than tinkering with computers as a child is to just have willpower to stare at something for hours with no end in sight just to have a small breakthrough. Those breakthroughs, for me, almost seemed to reward me with little releases of endorphins like solving a puzzle.

I lived for those "a-ha" moments too. I remember when the theory of computation clicked and the rush of understanding that washed over me that put everything I'd done in that class in perspective. It was probably the best feeling I ever had in my academic career.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#538

Post by microcolonel »

lordnacho wrote: post #107

The grief factor of learning to code is on a different scale to every other major. One missing semicolon will take your whole tower down, and you realise this in the first day of practical exercises. Even if you are of the opinion that CS is math, and coding doesn't come into it, you will hit a coding wall early on. In fact, every exercise in CS has this problem. You add a new thing (eg inheritance), and it breaks. B…

If you think the programming tools are the hard point, I have a proof assistant and program extractor to show you.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#539

Post by ikeyany »

na85 wrote: post #282
ikeyany wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe that being in the "engineering mindset" is at odds with what many people are used to. I think it's the culture that some see and get scared away from, even if that perception isn't 100% accurate. People interested in fixing CS "inclusivity" should address this first.

Given that computer science isn't engineering (they are distinct but different disciplines), can you elaborate on what you mean by the engineering mindset?

As an example, being "technically correct" is important for building a design to match a specification or for winning a logical argument.

But it is not an important skill for persuading people, or for cheering people up.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#540

Post by aerovistae »

erikbye wrote: post #427
aerovistae wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, anyone who can't do CS must not be very smart, right? Basically if they don't have the same skillset as you, they're probably not too bright. Doesn't matter if they can draw near-photorealistically or pick up a new foreign language in mere months, or perhaps breed fascinating variants of plants in all manner of ways in their dorm room just off intuition; if they can't pass CS101, if their mind doesn't work their…

I'm just saying a person thought to be "very smart" should be able to do CS101, easily; and I don't think the examples you mentioned are indication of extraordinary cognitive faculties. I taught myself near photo-realistic drawing, it's a mechanical skill--craftsmanship; had I continued to invest more time in perfecting the technique I would have got to what’s considered photo-realistic. My Spanish was decent after f…

It has nothing to do with extraordinary cognitive abilities and everything to do with how well you process different types of information.

You can draw really well, AND speak Spanish easily, and program! Wow! Congratulations, man! You must have a really versatile mind. Be proud.

But don't imagine that anyone who has more trouble than you learning these things "must not be very smart." That would make you a bit foolish.

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