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Why do so few people major in computer science?

danwang.co

521–530 of 627 posts

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#521

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember this too. For me it was the other way around. I learned QBasic - which I still think is awesome, even it was for DOS only - first. Then I learned C# in my first year at uni and it was a breeze. There were basically the people who could program, and the people who could not. You could see the double bell curve in the grade statistics.

To forestall the usual HN discussion: the double bell curve result has not, contrary to popular summary, been found invalid. Dehnadi & Bornat (2006) was the seminal two-hump paper, which was widely circulated but never peer reviewed. In 2014, Bornat (who was Dehnadi's advisor) retracted it. However, the situation is an odd one. None of the data was ever called into question. The basic methodology has seen criticisms…

That's funny, I never heard of the result. Thanks for the information!

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#523

I majored in computer science, and I don't feel like I've learned anything. Every time there was an opportunity to learn something cool (mathematical theory behind cryptography, assembly language, details of a processor, the cache, or a communication protocol) or useful, it was glanced over as 'technical details'. Instead, I was introduced to many, many small topics (programming, graphics, databases, algorithms, user…

You did compilers/formal languages at least, right? Writing one from scratch is not trivial.

It can be trivial depending on the goal[1]

[1] http://www.jroller.com/languages/entry/python_writing_a_comp...

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#524
post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That just sounds like the professor didn't teach them about Java classpath before telling them to use a CLI; or this kid didn't read the course materials.

Sure, but if you have been playing around with environment variables in your OS since you where 8 years old the problem becomes a lot easier to troubleshoot, compared to someone who has never heard of environment variables.

I'm a bit interested with your comment. Do we have 8 year olds playing around with environment variables in the OS? I'm curious because I never thought that could be possible

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#525

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It also further entrenches the advantages of people who come from affluent backgrounds. If you can afford a video game console, you can afford a raspberry pi (or equivalent.) > We don't expect law students to have been amateur lawyers in high school No, but we expect math majors to have done some math before they get to college. I don't disagree with you that most people can be brought up to speed in less than a ye…

A video game console has a known and proven entertainment value. The whole family can use it. It's a reason for people to come over to your house. It's a status symbol. Beyond that, I know a lot of poor kids who don't have video game consoles, and there literally isn't $50 in the budget for something that may or may not produce any value (not to mention the monitor, the peripherals, and taking up vast amounts of time…

You can always point to someone who can't afford it. That doesn't make me wrong.

There are now computers that cost as little as taking the family out to dinner at McDonalds. Probably a hundred million more people (yes, however, not every single person, ok) have the means to learn programming compared to when I was a kid.

Acknowledge that, because it's amazing.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#526
post #515
post #497

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's a ton of Stupid Computer Shit we all know, mostly from messing around on our own time, that makes programming or doing anything else with computers much easier. Thanks for clearly articulating this in 6 words: "Stupid Computer Shit we all know". This is something many people aren't willing to acknowledge (aka tribal knowledge gained from lots of trial and error). It perfectly summarizes what pg tried to com…

> Thanks for clearly articulating this in 6 words: "Stupid Computer Shit we all know". This is something many people aren't willing to acknowledge. I think a lot of us have forgotten how strange and frightening a blank command line was the first time we encountered it. And how long it took to actually get comfortable with it. Even a windowing system is weird if you're not used to it, and lots of people use those for…

I got dropped in to an AS/400 environment a few years ago. All my knowledge instantly vanished. It was harrowing.

There were so many idiosyncrasies my coworkers knew that I had to learn (anyone know how to push the F22 key?) The terminal didn't function in any way I was familiar with at all (no ls, cd, mv, nothing). The "filesystem" was basically for interoperability while the actual system ran with a concept of "libraries" instead of folder hierarchy.

I ended up having to take basic lessons on the system.

It really gave me an appreciation for "stupid computer shit we all know". It sucks to be in a position of not knowing that stuff. Suddenly the most basic functions becomes monumental tasks.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#527
post #498

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you've applied for a CS degree and not done any programming though why (outside of financial incentive) would a Uni want you, surely it shows you've no interest in the field - that has to correlate strongly with failure. From nothing to doing bubble-sorts with something like python shouldn't be more than a couple of weekends for someone of the caliber to study CS at Uni. Say you apply to study marine biology but h…

Maybe because in the USA, you don't "apply for a degree" at the undergraduate level? You apply to be at the university full stop, or at most an honors program.

So, you do modules or somesuch; presumably they have pre-requisites that work in largely the same way? Like for non high-school subjects "read chapters 1-4 of 'intro to $subject' and have a grade C or above on $exam"?

How do you manage expectations for courses/modules/whatever from both sides (teacher:student) without such things.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#528
Did he actually mean to imply more people major in physics? The most recent numbers show physics at an all time high of less than 8,000 bachelor's degrees awarded (1) whereas the computer science bachelor's degrees, restricted to CS departments in engineering schools (no "information" degrees, no CS departments in math or science colleges), were over 10,000 (2).

There was a drop in relative growth because several years before that, the dot-com bubble burst and women fled the field. He says he didn't see that in the NCES tables he looked at, but for pete's sake, that's the first link on Google! (3)

(1) https://www.aps.org/programs/education/statistics/bachelors....

(2) https://www.asee.org/papers-and-publications/publications/co...

(3) https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d12/tables/dt12_349.asp

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#529
One point I see missing: Colleges are inefficient, have poor quality of life, cost too much, and will not teach you the skills you need.

Financially, there is no way I could afford a CS degree today. People like to make the argument that its 'not much' because you'll get paid your entire tuitons worth in one year of work! But, thats not true for everyone. Infact its not true for many. Perhaps if you already live in silicon-valley-esque areas, maybe. But if you don't, Microsoft, Google and Amazon aren't waiting at the door for you. So what happens when you get a degree, and you don't get a 'good' job out of it right away? You probably end up in retail, putting away your entire paycheck into your tuition when you can't defer it anymore. Or, you get a low-paying 'tech' job that burns you out of the field.

But, even if you can afford it, can students go through with it? If any self-respecting developer went back to college now, after owning a house, having a family, y'know, a life, I think they'd drop out in the first few months, for what we would then count as perfectly understandable reasons. But for students, both colleges, and society, treat them like vessels without need for things like privacy and ownership.

Colleges play the game of forcing students into classes that have nothing to do with their majors. For example, speech classes. Yes, these are nice to have, but I am an adult, and I should be able to choose how I spend my money. In the system today, you are at the complete mercy of what the college tells you to do. Don't like it? Too bad. No warranty, no returns, its gone.

College tuition and overall living amenities are quite terrible in most locations. The state (public) university here charges the same amount as commercial apartments across the street, for a dorm room you share with another student that is smaller than your kitchen. Infact, only one building even has a kitchen, so you're stuck with your meal plans, which are during times when you have classes. Oh, also, if you miss a meal, you don't get that money back.

If you're a male, and want to live near the college, you are at a disadvantage for rent. Girls are more preferred for renting, to the point where these places are girls-only, are cheaper, and are the closest to the campus. Cheaper as in, a few hundred less than a dorm room, and you actually get your own room.

Add ontop that this college purposely built in fast-food restaurants, over-spend on decoration and marble counters for their cafeteria (and other places), have teachers with superiority complexes and are generally incompetent - I don't think its a bad choice to avoid that altogether. Even if you're working at Walmart for years in the cheapest apartments, its still most likely better living conditions.

If colleges actually wanted to invest in education, there are a million ways they could be doing that. Thats not to say that all colleges are like this, community colleges can be better at costs and what you need, but students are never told about any of this. They are given a list of options. "Pick one".

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#530

The grief factor of learning to code is on a different scale to every other major. One missing semicolon will take your whole tower down, and you realise this in the first day of practical exercises. Even if you are of the opinion that CS is math, and coding doesn't come into it, you will hit a coding wall early on. In fact, every exercise in CS has this problem. You add a new thing (eg inheritance), and it breaks. B…

> The grief factor of learning to code is on a different scale to every other major. One missing semicolon will take your whole tower down, and you realise this in the first day of practical exercises.

Only somebody with zero experience with wet lab chemistry or biology could ever write the above with a straight face.

At least you can fix a missing semicolon. If you screw up a long-running organic synthesis, or you kill your bacterial colony around generation 2,000 all you can do is start the whole thing over.

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