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Why do so few people major in computer science?

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Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#181

Post by kutkloon7 »

kbenson wrote: post #142
kutkloon7 wrote: post #79

I majored in computer science, and I don't feel like I've learned anything. Every time there was an opportunity to learn something cool (mathematical theory behind cryptography, assembly language, details of a processor, the cache, or a communication protocol) or useful, it was glanced over as 'technical details'. Instead, I was introduced to many, many small topics (programming, graphics, databases, algorithms, user…

> Every time there was an opportunity to learn something cool ... it was glanced over as 'technical details'. That's interesting. The most common complaint in my program from students was that we weren't actually learning how to program. Actually learning how to use a language was considered (for the most part) a "technical detail", and the course was very heavy on algorithm analysis, theory of computation, math, how…

We followed a very different program then! Maybe the one you described would be better for me. In the program I followed, students learn how to program (which I already could), and that's about it.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#182

Post by mbell »

I still can't figure out why prospective developers go to school for computer science other than lack of better options. It's the equivalent of someone whom wants to go into civil engineering getting a degree in physics. It can certainly work, but it doesn't really line up with the end game. I guess it's mostly just the lack of computer engineering programs. But, most of those seem to be rather off base in terms of preparing developers as well.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#183

Post by elihu »

watwut wrote: post #161
elihu wrote: post #156

My theory: computer programming is awesome, but getting a good job doing interesting work is really hard. A bachelor's degree in computer science won't even get your foot in the door in a lot of places. However, there is lots of work doing IT for banks or writing Java for insurance companies or creating web pages for doctor's offices. That sort of thing might pay pretty well, but it's not the sort of thing that you w…

There are interesting jobs in Java, actually. Interesting for me means you have to think to complete task and that you have to often learn. Java was always getting bad reputation, but seriously, people who diss it the most are the ones who tend to produce the same small project over and over (but in cool languages).

I expect there are interesting Java jobs. However, a lot of companies who aren't particularly interested in technology tend to gravitate to Java or .Net because nobody ever got fired for writing a boring application on those platforms.

That's not to say that there's anything wrong with Java. I just have trouble imagining an insurance company paying some Java developers to do basic research on fundamental computer science problems, or writing a new operating system or programming language or database.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#184

Post by cynusx »

The whole idea that people pick their education based on rational assumptions when they are 18, know essentially nothing and are coming straight out of an environment where perceived status is all that matters on the playgrounds is ridiculous.

The choice of what to study is not a rational decision but a social decision. People follow their friends, guys go study what the hottest girls he knows are going to study, parents push kids to study fields that they themselves perceive as high-status like finance, law or medicine.

The biggest problem with computer science degrees is that it is a relatively new field and it hasn't been embedded in society as high status yet. This will change, but it will take generations for it to take effect.

The field is obviously difficult but you don't have to be a genius to get a CS degree, it doesn't require much more determination to study ridiculous amounts of jargon for law or medicine degree then to understand complex discrete mathematics problems. The social cost of "failing" a law degree is much higher (parents complain son of X did pass and he had similar SATS) then failing an engineering degree (parents understand "it", they don't understand computers either).

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#185

Post by hn094062 »

I tried pulling a CS-English double major in the 1980s. I loved programming, especially the then-new network programming. But the school I attended used the ACM CS Curriculum which pretty much required a math minor in addition, and the logistics didn't work for me (I ran out of money). I would have needed another three semesters just to meet the math requirements.

IIRC, I didn't particularly enjoy the actual CS classes, instead I'd spend hours playing with the Sun workstations and tinkering with how commands and code interacted. I could care less about Universal Turing Machines but became the defacto sysadmin for our tiny cluster. None of that counted as course credits of course.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#187

Post by refurb »

ArialAnemone wrote: post #67
_Codemonkeyism wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After talking to dozens of women and men, girls and boys trying to convince them to go into computer science, the reason they told me is the (wrong) image they have of programing: sitting alone for 8h a day in front of a computer. Looks like the those who voted me down had more success in getting more people into CS.

It's not merely sitting down. It's seeing the code monkeys of life being manipulated by people who are adept at manipulating humans and getting higher status and pay for it. Think of a lot of technical positions in the military. They get bossed around by non-technical people.

It's much better being the one who beats the drum than the multitude that row the boat.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#188

Post by tnecniv »

freyr wrote: post #148
kutkloon7 wrote: post #79

I majored in computer science, and I don't feel like I've learned anything. Every time there was an opportunity to learn something cool (mathematical theory behind cryptography, assembly language, details of a processor, the cache, or a communication protocol) or useful, it was glanced over as 'technical details'. Instead, I was introduced to many, many small topics (programming, graphics, databases, algorithms, user…

I majored in EE, even though I expected to someday take a software job because I really enjoy programming. I figured I could continue teaching myself programming in parallel. As a self-taught programmer, I think you're downplaying how much you can learn in a CS program. I don't pretend to know as much as a CS major. I haven't spent time learning compilers or DB internals, and probably haven't studied CS algorithms en…

Have you considered doing embedded systems work? You can flex that programming muscle without abandoning all the EE stuff you think is cool.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#189

Post by q845712 »

wvenable wrote: post #152
kutkloon7 wrote: post #79

I majored in computer science, and I don't feel like I've learned anything. Every time there was an opportunity to learn something cool (mathematical theory behind cryptography, assembly language, details of a processor, the cache, or a communication protocol) or useful, it was glanced over as 'technical details'. Instead, I was introduced to many, many small topics (programming, graphics, databases, algorithms, user…

Most developers don't appreciate how big of a difference there can be between different schools with regards to their computing science programs. I picked a pretty good school and we got in depth with assembly, graphics, databases, functional programming, etc. In my time there, I wrote my own programming language and VM, a working raytracer, a neutral net project, and much more. I appreciate having a good solid base…

Completely agree, but I'd even add internships.

Relatively often while trying to help a fresh-from-school hire I'll ask myself silently "when and how did I learn this" and realize it happened before my first day as a full-time software engineer. But it's fairly evenly split between coursework that has proven itself to be better-than-average or through some fortuitous internship experiences.

aside, i interned at a nat'l lab and I wonder if there are any reliable predictors for how good of a training opportunity an internship will be. I think mine was good because I got a lot of attention from two smart people who had more experience and a decent grasp of many best-practices, though they were both relatively fresh from (graduate) school themselves.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#190

Post by sage76 »

twblalock wrote: post #33
xxSparkleSxx wrote: post #12

I think the market is just way over saturated. Hiring practices for developers point to just that. I mentioned in a different thread how simole it is for my travel-nurse of a sister to get a new job (her stints around the Bay Area paid ~100k and she only has 2 years of experience). Developers jump through hoop after hoop for employment, this wouldn't happen if they were in demand like a nurse. The market is just resp…

I don't know what market you're in, but it's definitely hard to find good people in Silicon Valley. Most of the time my company finds one, they have multiple offers. It's also difficult to believe in an oversaturation of developers when their salaries are at record highs -- that only happens when demand increases relative to supply. There is no union, and minimum wage is nowhere near what developers are paid, so supp…

> I don't know what market you're in, but it's definitely hard to find good people in Silicon Valley.

Depending on how you define "good", I would dispute the assumption that every company deserves good people. Information about what a company is like to work at spreads fast enough for good people to avoid them. There are plenty of such companies.

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