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Why do so few people major in computer science?

danwang.co

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Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#121

Post by paganel »

cs702 wrote: post #44

One possible answer no one has mentioned so far is that there many smart, capable people who do NOT want to spend hours every day sitting at a desk, in front of a computer, focused on code, with limited human interaction... so they pursue majors in other fields.

> capable people who do NOT want to spend hours every day sitting at a desk, in front of a computer, focused on code, with limited human interaction.

I've been asked by various close acquaintances and friends if they should try to get into IT (mostly as programmers), I've told them they should really be passionate about the field, not think only about the money, otherwise they would have a really bad time, psychologically speaking.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#122

Post by taway_1212 »

mempko wrote: post #102
romanovcode wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it is also the only career which people try to inject diversity just for the sake of it. Maybe I just live in developer bubble and don't know any better, but I've never seen a movement like "Girls do Plumbing!", "Black girls construction bootcamp" or "Mining for equality!".

It's not "for the sake of it", diversity brings insanely great benefits. Lack of diversity is likely why most software produced by this industry is, well, shit.

> It's not "for the sake of it", diversity brings insanely great benefits.

Are there any proofs of this assertion?

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#123

Post by kevan »

kutkloon7 wrote: post #105
kevan wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's fair to say that computer science isn't hard when you openly admit that you didn't go into any depth in the topics. That's like me claiming the field of Mathematics isn't very hard because the bog- standard calculus courses I took weren't very difficult. Maybe we should be asking whether computer science as we know it is too broad of a field to meaningfully explore in a Bachelor's degree.

True, you can make it as difficult as you want. But generally, math, physics, and engineering programs are much harder.

It wouldn't surprise me if there was higher variation in program difficulty for CS because the field is younger and doesn't have the level of standardization that traditional engineering fields have (ABET), but we need real data to have a meaningful conversation about it.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#124

Post by ken47 »

johan_larson wrote: post #84

I would guess the issue is prestige. Software development, like engineering in general, is not a top-tier profession in the US. The actually top-tier professions are doctor, lawyer, and banker/financier. Software developers, like accountants, are well paid but second-tier in status, geeks who worry about the details rather than distinguished professionals who call the shots. Interestingly, the three professions I men…

I disagree. The things you say may have been true decades ago, but are not entirely accurate today.

The US's banking industry's reputation took a big hit in 2008, and it has become increasingly common for top university students to head into tech over finance since then. Not to mention, firms like Goldman Sachs are replacing many of their traditional traders with software engineers.

Outside of top law schools, the prospects of law grads have diminished greatly over the past decade or two. And some varieties of lawyers, such as patent trolls, are especially frowned upon -- the opposite of "top-tier" and "distinguished" in the eyes of many.

And I don't think the pool of potential doctors and the pool of potential software engineers overlap much at all. I would guess that the number of university students deciding to be doctors instead of software engineers is quite small.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#125

Post by terminalcommand »

pbui wrote: post #56

From my experience, the main reason for the low number of CS majors is simple: most students don't know what Computer Science is. At the university where I teach, half of the CS majors arrived on campus not knowing they would major in Computer Science simply because they didn't know what CS was. Only after taking a first year engineering sequence where they sample different aspects of multiple engineering disciplines…

The bitter part of wishing you had majored in CS is that most of the times you cannot and you have to live with it. Being able to work with computers is both a skill and a burden. For example I was the classic computer-whiz all my life. Due to a twist of faith, I found myself in law school and I'm graduating next year.

In my freetime I still try to cargo-cult learn CS. I tried a lot to give up computers, but I couldn't.

Maybe a CS4ALL movement can filter out kids who have a mind for CS and inform their parents about it. I suffered a lot from the notion of not being able to study CS. Especially the first couple of years of college were the worst.

On the other hand, as you have experienced with the record growth, most of the young people get into CS degrees. Maybe CS is more a passion among teens like music/painting. It may as well be a trend of our century. In the 19-20th century young men generally wanted to study painting, now we want to study CS. Because computers promise creativity, autonomy and inherently give us an identity, because we think we're "gifted".

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#126

Post by cbcoutinho »

kutkloon7 wrote: post #105
kevan wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's fair to say that computer science isn't hard when you openly admit that you didn't go into any depth in the topics. That's like me claiming the field of Mathematics isn't very hard because the bog- standard calculus courses I took weren't very difficult. Maybe we should be asking whether computer science as we know it is too broad of a field to meaningfully explore in a Bachelor's degree.

True, you can make it as difficult as you want. But generally, math, physics, and engineering programs are much harder.

This probably just reinforces his point - engineering undergrad is basically just applied math and physics, whereas the real meat of the major is usually reserved for whatever faculty you're in. Instead of having just 'Engineering', we have Civil, Electrical, Aerospace, etc.

We should probably think of Computer Science in the same way. Instead of just vanilla CS, we could split a CS BA/BS into just as many specific concentrates: assembly, architectures, crypto, data related anything (management, safety, security, databases), etc.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#127

Post by ArialAnemone »

sidlls wrote: post #98
ArialAnemone wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you're not promoting "diversity of thought", you're promoting BS signals. How is it promoting facts when you're searching for superficial signs of diversity? You're promoting a form of corporate doublethink where filling out bubbles of sex and race is automatically analogous with some platonic ideal where every single variant of human being had this amazing differential that'd waiting to be exploited. But instead…

You're making many assumptions that really aren't justified.

How are they not justified?

A cynical understanding of human nature and society serves a person far better than the opposite.

People want to do less work than more work. For people involved in acquiring, placing, and managing human resources, an easy way to signal "work"/"useful work" is by parroting the line of superficial diversity.

That's my experience at least. I win far more bets by assuming the worst of intentions than the best in these hiring games.

In the military you see a big push for "diversity", especially in relation to sex, where all sorts of carrots are trotted out just to have a platonic makeup of sees in the armed forces. Nevermind that one of those sexes has an ace in the hole called "pregnancy" which the mil. Bureaucracy will bend to accommodate.

Nevermind the disastrous effects on morale and confidence in command this brings to some poor bastard from Nebraska who goes through all sorts of shit. If he gets a girlfriend, or God forbid a wife, he faces the risk of absolute cuckery on that side. If he messes around with whores and the command is looking for a scapegoat, they'll bring him up for ucmj charges. Meanwhile if his girlfriend/wife messes around with boys on the base, she has no repercussion for her actions.

"Wait, what about the pregnant female soldiers?"

Easy office job and easy promotion because higher-ups would rather have eye candy over a more disposable resource (competent males).

What gets me is the total denial of this facet of human nature by those who push "diversity".

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#129

Post by [deleted] »

simonsarris wrote: post #11

Slight note about Dan Wang picking 2005: That was the peak of CS degrees awarded because it's 4/5 years after the height of the dot-com bubble. So the upward bump in the mid-2000's is somewhat explainable as an anomaly. I think his point 1 is underrated. CS degrees are flat because aptitude is flat. You can compare CS degrees to other degrees over time at nsf.gov: https://www.nsf.gov/statistics/2016/nsb20161/#/report…

[deleted]

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#130

Post by dahart »

Whoa, that chart seems really misleading. There are 3x more CS majors than math majors and 2x more than physics. The chart is showing derivatives, not absolutes. That basically undermines the title of the article.

Looking at the graph, it's also super important to see the context before 2005 -- that start date adds significantly to the misleading impression this graph is giving.

Math had more majors in 1970 than it does today. Physics has only grown by 50% in the last 40 years, and both have had huge dips just like CS had.

I was coming up with some explanations myself, but now I think I reject the premise, and feel like the right question is: why are so many people majoring in CS and so few in math and physics. More math and physics people can code than ever before, it seems like they'd be able to score coding jobs and be more prepared than a lot of CS grads.

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