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A 16th-century engineer whose work almost defeated the Ottomans

arstechnica.com

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Re: A 16th-century engineer whose work almost defeated the Ottomans

#41
post #16
post #13

A personal anecdote from a non-historian: Some years back I took a holiday in Malta. Taking the ferry to Valletta, climbing the ramp up from the dock, I was shocked to see the scale of the fortifications. I knew it was a strategically important place, but what surprised me was how obviously the entire walled peninsula of Valletta seemed to have been constructed first and foremost as a fortress. It's easy to forget th…

Isn't there still a correlation between status and size these days? Tall with good hair and you're already leadership material... It's amazing how much of that story could have been written yesterday. Tunneling is still used in the middle-east as a war tactic. North Korea tunnels to South Korea. The value of engineering ;) Embargoes are essentially siege tactics.

> Isn't there still a correlation between status and size these days?

Yes. The wage gap between short men and huge men makes any perceived gender based wage gap between male and female look very, very puny.

Re: A 16th-century engineer whose work almost defeated the Ottomans

#42
post #41
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't there still a correlation between status and size these days? Tall with good hair and you're already leadership material... It's amazing how much of that story could have been written yesterday. Tunneling is still used in the middle-east as a war tactic. North Korea tunnels to South Korea. The value of engineering ;) Embargoes are essentially siege tactics.

> Isn't there still a correlation between status and size these days? Yes. The wage gap between short men and huge men makes any perceived gender based wage gap between male and female look very, very puny.

Sorry for the nitpick, but:

Why do you present the height-based wage gap as a fact, while presenting the gender-based wage gap merely as "perceived"?

Is there more evidence for the former wage gap than for the latter? Or, is the one type of discrimination more acceptable than the other?

Re: A 16th-century engineer whose work almost defeated the Ottomans

#43
post #28
post #4

Suleyman was not only a great military mind, but an extremely astute politician as well. One thing the article fails to mention is that Suleyman didn't just let the people of Rhodes "go free" after their defeat, the Knights Hospitaler had to hand over their fortresses in Kos and Bodrum as part of the deal. This was a smart move as the castle in Bodrum was much better fortified, and Suleyman got it without, in essence…

I liked this part of the article: "Suleiman was respectful and generous in victory. The citizens of Rhodes were to be exempt from both taxation and conscription for the next five years. Tadini was allowed to leave. He went to the colonies of Genoa, where he again fought invading Ottoman forces and again lost. The Order of St. John was allowed to leave in peace and build a new fortress elsewhere. They did so on Malta,…

The Siege of Malta or the Christan/Ottoman conflict as a whole is generally not considered a shining light of graciousness. During the Siege of Malta, both sides bombarded each other with human heads. A few years later at the Siege of Famagusta, the Venetians were promised safe passage if they surrendered, only to have the survivors murdered and the commander flayed alive, stuffed with straw, paraded through the streets on an ox and brought as a gift to the Sultan.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-466818/Historys-bloo...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marco_Antonio_Bragadin

Re: A 16th-century engineer whose work almost defeated the Ottomans

#44
post #42
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Isn't there still a correlation between status and size these days? Yes. The wage gap between short men and huge men makes any perceived gender based wage gap between male and female look very, very puny.

Sorry for the nitpick, but: Why do you present the height-based wage gap as a fact, while presenting the gender-based wage gap merely as "perceived"? Is there more evidence for the former wage gap than for the latter? Or, is the one type of discrimination more acceptable than the other?

Not the original poster, but:

A number of the gender based wage gap studies that have made a splash in the press have neglected to account for multiple facets of employment and occupational risk leading to conclusions showing an outsize pay gap... They've documented inequal outcomes in the market based on equivalent experience or education across sectors without controlling for inequality of physical-demands and employment distribution... The popular press then extrapolates these findings inartfully, leading to a shared sense of gender discrimination that is not borne out by the broader market.

I know this is something of a hot button topic, so I'll be extra clear: women and men are of equal value, and deserve equal pay for equal work, naturally. But we have to own the fact that, statistically, men really should be earning more at work as long as men are doing the majority of high-risk occupations and women are taking more time off of work when having children. There are a lot of different studies, but last I dug into this when you start comparing more apples-to-apples you find that the gender gap is nowhere near the oft cited 0.75 cents on the dollar.

There is a gender pay gap, though it's quite difficult IMO to pin that gap on broad sexism given a few cultural factors. Namely men being 6 times more likely to ask for a raise at work, men being more likely to measure self-worth at work through money and not peer approval, societal pressures for men to be a 'provider', and for men to measure self-worth almost exclusively through career success.

While we're looking at why young men are more likely to find themselves doing EOD work or high-voltage wire repair than women, lets also remember that the physical difference between the sexes can, in fact, be a life or death matter in some occupations... And if we want to compare employment outcomes by years of education taken, we really need to quantify how dirty and dangerous jobs oriented towards physical labour would ideally be gender-represented in the market. Ie Sewer repair technicians and plumbers and construction skew male and high paying compared to white collar positions with the same length of training - are we really going to expect 50% female representation in those fields?

Height based studies, on the other hand, are much easier to setup controls for. Outside of the far extremes height doesn't fundamentally impact employment opportunities, and demographically are much easier in terms of experimental design. As long as those studies control for certain kinds of physical work which self-select towards large/small people we should be able to get a reasonable grasp of how the world responds to taller people. Last I checked a few inches in height meant a significant increase in yearly takehome pay, management opportunities, and attractiveness as a mate.

Bottom line: easier studies that aren't politically loaded tend to give us better data than harder studies that are rich with social and political subtext... Women should get paid as well as men, but we can't pretend that Geese and Ganders are one and the same. Deep sea welders get paid a lot of money and jobs like that will create a statistical gender pay gap as long as they are not equally distributed among the genders.

Re: A 16th-century engineer whose work almost defeated the Ottomans

#45
post #37
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I liked this part of the article: "Suleiman was respectful and generous in victory. The citizens of Rhodes were to be exempt from both taxation and conscription for the next five years. Tadini was allowed to leave. He went to the colonies of Genoa, where he again fought invading Ottoman forces and again lost. The Order of St. John was allowed to leave in peace and build a new fortress elsewhere. They did so on Malta,…

> This kind of graciousness in warfare does not seem to exist in modern times. Weird, considering how brutal war in those times looks compared with today. Well, there was a ton of brutality then as well. Probably even much worse than today.

I think so too. In our recent conflicts when you were caught you might get shot, the ancients used torture-killing so cruel I can't even read about it without feeling sick. Not even the Nazis used something like the Brazen Bull (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazen_bull), and that's just a simple device and procedure, they were much more inventive than that in the past. 1000 years ago those involved in the assassination attempt on "Der Führer" would have faced far more horrible deaths than they actually got. It seems to me even the most evil Nazis didn't have 1% of the imagination of the ancients (possibly excluding Dr. Josef Mengele, but he didn't think a about how to create pain, he just didn't care if his subjects did).

Re: A 16th-century engineer whose work almost defeated the Ottomans

#47
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of my favorite party questions is, "Who was the last man who knew everything ?"

I doubt, that there ever was such a man. For example knowing about plants and animals. We as whole humanity are still far from knowing them all on the earth, so how could somebody from history knew them all? And even if you only count "everything" as the whole current knowledge of humanity, then also no, as there are for example tribes in the jungle who know about plants or hunting technics the genius in europe never…

> I doubt, that there ever was such a man.

I've heard this question before. I think it's more useful to think of it as "When was the last era when it was possible for one person to know everything that's known?"

Doubtful that there ever was such a particular person, at least because of geography, as you point out, and different concerns in different parts of the world. But there must have been such an era; I don't know when that was.

Re: A 16th-century engineer whose work almost defeated the Ottomans

#48
Most people casually interested in the crusader period know about the Knights Templar. But it turns out the Knights of St. John are just as fascinating, still exist, and have sovereign status similar to a nation-state. They built the impressive fortifications at Rhodes, which have technically never been defeated (they surrendered after a six month siege and only with the word of Suleiman the Magnificent that the survivors would be granted safe passage off the island). Then moved to Malta where they built an even more impressive set of fortifications and civic structures.

The Knights were composed mostly of nobles from Europe and thus brought tremendous wealth with them. Initially they set up hospitals in the 12th century to care for pilgrims traveling from Europe to the Holy Land. That role grew into a militarily defensive role and then grew some full-on military features by the 14th century.

Being composed of rich Nobles, the order at one point may have had access to more wealth than the entire rest of the Roman Catholic Church during this time period. During the early Malta period of the 16th century, the Knights built one of the most incredible and beautiful buildings I've ever seen. The outside isn't much to look at, but the inside is one of the most decorated buildings I've ever been in -- pictures don't really do it justice. The local "real" Cathedral built by the Catholic Church looks positively spartan in comparison even though it also is a beautiful building.

http://www.maltacultureguide.com/admin/images/stjohn_04_big....

http://www.divine-name.info/worldwide/malta/mdina/Mdina2.JPG

The order survived into the modern age, and over the ages did a number of works, continued to administer Malta, and happened to colonize parts of the Caribbean. Weakened during both the Protestant Reformation and the Napoleonic wars, but returned to the roots as a human welfare and religious group. They eventually changed their name to "the Sovereign Military Order of Malta" (SMOM) which they keep to this day as the oldest surviving order of chivalry.

Amazingly it actually is a "sovereign" order, meaning they're viewed in many circles to have power equal to that of a minor nation-state even though they have no territory at all -- the only example in the world today. For example, SMOM is a permanent observer in the U.N. [1] and maintains diplomatic relations with 106 countries. It can enter into treaties, issue passports, coins and postage. Their headquarter buildings in Rome are treated as Embassies and enjoy diplomatic extraterritoriality.

1 - https://www.un.int/orderofmalta/

2 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_Military_Order_of_Ma...

Re: A 16th-century engineer whose work almost defeated the Ottomans

#49
post #44
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry for the nitpick, but: Why do you present the height-based wage gap as a fact, while presenting the gender-based wage gap merely as "perceived"? Is there more evidence for the former wage gap than for the latter? Or, is the one type of discrimination more acceptable than the other?

Not the original poster, but: A number of the gender based wage gap studies that have made a splash in the press have neglected to account for multiple facets of employment and occupational risk leading to conclusions showing an outsize pay gap... They've documented inequal outcomes in the market based on equivalent experience or education across sectors without controlling for inequality of physical-demands and empl…

This comment, at the very least, should make think a bit more critically when reading or listening to stories about the gender pay gap. Thanks!

Re: A 16th-century engineer whose work almost defeated the Ottomans

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I notice you're new to HN. Welcome! https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html To understand what makes HN different from other sites, you may want to familiarize yourself with the guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html In particular, we try to write comments that are interesting to read. That rules out swipes and one-line dismissals: calling something amateurish, or complaining about downvot…

Thank you for the reply. Having lurked on HN for a while, I'm used to some negativity, or at least very critical, comments. So when most of the comments for this piece appeared positive something seemed off. Anyway, I appreciate the environment on HN and the steps users like you take to preserve it.

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