IPhone =/= Debian app • Hacker News Board

Re: IPhone =/= Debian app

#31

Post by telemachos » Sat, Jun 19, 2010, 12:59 AM UTC

codeflo wrote: post #27

telemachos wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Edited to remove unhelpful rage It sounds like you don't know Debian very well. That's fine. No reason you should. I know Debian reasonably well. I can tell you that in four years of using aptitude, I have found a very small number of edge cases where it does not work sanely, efficiently and helpfully. (To clarify it's really APT + aptitude. aptitude is one possible tool to use APT.) It's not perfect; no software is.…

(Edit: This response was written at a point when the parent post was quite a bit more unfriendly than it is now. I'll leave this here regardless, even though it's out of context now.) Was I in any way rude to you? 1. That's not what I said. 2. I admit that I don't use Debian, but internally, package managers don't differ that much. I was criticizing the model where software has to install files all over the place. I…

You were not rude. My initial response was unhelpful and aggressive, and I quickly edited it to respond to your arguments. I apologize for the initial response.

For the record, regarding 3, there is something in the design of Debian that makes the cleanup function work very reliably. (Again, not perfectly, but very reliably.) There are strict, strict rules for Debian maintainers in terms of the pre-install and post-removal scripts that go with packages. These rules help to maintain a very uniform system - even though its actively developed by thousands of people all over the world who are often only loosely connected to each other.

Re: IPhone =/= Debian app

#32

Post by codeflo » Sat, Jun 19, 2010, 1:04 AM UTC

telemachos wrote: post #17

codeflo wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I want to make a few things clear here. First of all, I was being a bit snarky obviously. I didn't know about "aptitude purge", but it's a bit ironic that when googling for that, the first result is a forum post about someone with orphaned config files that aptitude purge wouldn't remove... sounds reliable. I think it's time for desktop OS makers (and that includes Apple, because OS X isn't any different from L…

Edited to remove unhelpful rage It sounds like you don't know Debian very well. That's fine. No reason you should. I know Debian reasonably well. I can tell you that in four years of using aptitude, I have found a very small number of edge cases where it does not work sanely, efficiently and helpfully. (To clarify it's really APT + aptitude. aptitude is one possible tool to use APT.) It's not perfect; no software is.…

> I deeply disagree about iOS representing a good future for software.

Now that's a point worth discussing. iOS is locked down to the point where I would almost call it unusable -- we don't disagree here. However, I'm also convinced that some steps in that direction are needed to keep the "general-purpose computer" viable as a mass-market device. A computing environment that's open enough so that software can be useful, yet closed enough so that it can't be harmful. (Harmful defined in the broad sense that it can't have any unwanted or permanent effect on the system, including: changing the homepage, installing toolbars, running persistently in the background and so on.) All this has to work in the absence of a central authority.

Re: IPhone =/= Debian app

#33

Post by younata » Sat, Jun 19, 2010, 1:05 AM UTC

telemachos wrote: post #17

codeflo wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I want to make a few things clear here. First of all, I was being a bit snarky obviously. I didn't know about "aptitude purge", but it's a bit ironic that when googling for that, the first result is a forum post about someone with orphaned config files that aptitude purge wouldn't remove... sounds reliable. I think it's time for desktop OS makers (and that includes Apple, because OS X isn't any different from L…

Edited to remove unhelpful rage It sounds like you don't know Debian very well. That's fine. No reason you should. I know Debian reasonably well. I can tell you that in four years of using aptitude, I have found a very small number of edge cases where it does not work sanely, efficiently and helpfully. (To clarify it's really APT + aptitude. aptitude is one possible tool to use APT.) It's not perfect; no software is.…

well, as a user, there's no real way for you to know that aptitude purge completely removes everything, you have to trust that it works. Sure, as a power-user or developer, you can go look around /etc or /usr/share or wherever and remove all those configuration and documentation files, but will you?

I used debian for about a year, I trusted that aptitude purge removed as much as it could. I knew that trust was misplaced, but for my purposes as a user, it was good enough.

Similarly, for iOS devices, I don't know how well it removes config files and whatnot. I simply trust that it removes everything. I have slightly more trust in iApp config files being removed because these apps are sandboxed, and it's a relatively simple matter of removing the directory the app fills.

Re: IPhone =/= Debian app

#34

Post by codeflo » Sat, Jun 19, 2010, 1:12 AM UTC

telemachos wrote: post #31

codeflo wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Edit: This response was written at a point when the parent post was quite a bit more unfriendly than it is now. I'll leave this here regardless, even though it's out of context now.) Was I in any way rude to you? 1. That's not what I said. 2. I admit that I don't use Debian, but internally, package managers don't differ that much. I was criticizing the model where software has to install files all over the place. I…

You were not rude. My initial response was unhelpful and aggressive, and I quickly edited it to respond to your arguments. I apologize for the initial response. For the record, regarding 3, there is something in the design of Debian that makes the cleanup function work very reliably. (Again, not perfectly, but very reliably.) There are strict, strict rules for Debian maintainers in terms of the pre-install and post-r…

Apology accepted. Much of my dislike for package managers is on theoretical grounds (I use Macports, but only casually), so it's great to argue with someone who actually knows something about them.

Re: IPhone =/= Debian app

#35

Post by telemachos » Sat, Jun 19, 2010, 1:15 AM UTC

thought_alarm wrote: post #23

As Apple's products get more and more popular with developers and users, the anti-Apple criticism get more and more bizarre and inane.

I'm not sure what you think is inane - I wouldn't mind hearing. And I read the post as anti-Appstore more than anti-Apple. (I think it's an important distinction in context.)

The poster is responding to this in the thread above him:

How many useful applications are in Debian's repositories?

10 thousand? 20 thousand?

How long has Debian been around? 17 years?

Now compare this to iPhone: 3 years and ~140,000 applications.

The post isn't criticizing Apple so much as saying to that argument, "You're not counting parallel things here. The Appstore is filled with trivially small apps - apps that amount to no more than a simple webpage. That inflates those numbers."

What is it you find inane there?

Re: IPhone =/= Debian app

#36

Post by telemachos » Sat, Jun 19, 2010, 1:21 AM UTC

younata wrote: post #33

telemachos wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Edited to remove unhelpful rage It sounds like you don't know Debian very well. That's fine. No reason you should. I know Debian reasonably well. I can tell you that in four years of using aptitude, I have found a very small number of edge cases where it does not work sanely, efficiently and helpfully. (To clarify it's really APT + aptitude. aptitude is one possible tool to use APT.) It's not perfect; no software is.…

well, as a user, there's no real way for you to know that aptitude purge completely removes everything, you have to trust that it works. Sure, as a power-user or developer, you can go look around /etc or /usr/share or wherever and remove all those configuration and documentation files, but will you? I used debian for about a year, I trusted that aptitude purge removed as much as it could. I knew that trust was mispla…

I hear what you're saying, but I think you misunderstood me.

I wasn't trying to distinguish regular users from power users. I was trying to distinguish all users (however knowledgeable) from specially licensed developers. I was trying to make about about the openness and freedom of Debian as a platform versus the locked-down nature of iOS.

Also, I disagree about your trust: it wasn't misplaced.

Re: IPhone =/= Debian app

#37

Post by dman » Sat, Jun 19, 2010, 1:29 AM UTC

codeflo wrote: post #32

telemachos wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Edited to remove unhelpful rage It sounds like you don't know Debian very well. That's fine. No reason you should. I know Debian reasonably well. I can tell you that in four years of using aptitude, I have found a very small number of edge cases where it does not work sanely, efficiently and helpfully. (To clarify it's really APT + aptitude. aptitude is one possible tool to use APT.) It's not perfect; no software is.…

> I deeply disagree about iOS representing a good future for software. Now that's a point worth discussing. iOS is locked down to the point where I would almost call it unusable -- we don't disagree here. However, I'm also convinced that some steps in that direction are needed to keep the "general-purpose computer" viable as a mass-market device. A computing environment that's open enough so that software can be usef…

Stallman has a nice fable about locking computers down - http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html

Re: IPhone =/= Debian app

#38

Post by docgnome » Sat, Jun 19, 2010, 1:44 AM UTC

dman wrote: post #24

faboo wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This attitude is perplexing to me. a) If you have internet access, why would you need to buy a book? b) Unless you're a strict Prolog or ML enthusiast, Objective C is similar enough to what you already know that you could probably be productive inside a weekend or two. Also, learning a new language or library that's different enough from what you know that it takes more than a few hours to be comfortable (generally)…

a) Because I stare at a computer screen ~10 hours a day at work. When I am reading in the evening I prefer to have a book, which I can underline and scribble in. b) Every programmer over time develops tiny helpful apps that make life bearable, having to rewrite all those apps / utilities in a fresh new language is a burden that I would like to avoid. c) Admittedly I am a bit more aggrieved than most people because my…

I prefer to read from books but the information in most programming books is out of date very fast. For this reason, I prefer learning languages from the web.

Re: IPhone =/= Debian app

#39

Post by talklittle » Sat, Jun 19, 2010, 1:51 AM UTC

mralbie wrote: post #6

These worthless apps are also a cost to Apple. It is getting harder and harder to find quality apps on the App Store. The Store itself is now (a) the 'Featured' page, (b) the 'Top Ten' lists, and (c) Apple's 'Collections'. The more difficult it is to find quality apps the more difficult it will be for the ecosystem as a whole to improve. Are there other examples of online stores with vast selections which genuinely h…

It is a cost to Apple, but it is a problem they are actively addressing in R&D. I'm basing this statement largely on discussion from yesterday's HN post (the guy claiming to be "snubbed" on potential Apple business deal): http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1440303

Re: IPhone =/= Debian app

#40

Post by handelaar » Sat, Jun 19, 2010, 2:03 AM UTC

mortenjorck wrote: post #2

Yes, just like the dot com boom, this growth is unsustainable. But again, just like the dot com boom, once the market has matured to blow away the chaff, what remains will have proven pretty game-changing.

The step in that process you left out was "years-long massive earthquake-level crash leading to complete economic collapse of the micro-economy under discussion", the kind where most of the casualties are all the smart non-founders in the industry.

Been there, done that.

The primary reason I'm involved in this community is that I was in London before the first crash. Us internet people had been there for a decade or more, but all the investment money was going to some twat in a suit who had no cocking idea what was going on, or why.

Outside the little Nirvana that pg and company (among others) have created, the same rules apply.

[All of the following may be completely Euro-specific.]

Talentless schmucks get all the money available because they're the {sons|nephews|mistresses|cabana boys} of other people with money, and then try to hire us to fill in the yawning chasms (they call them 'gaps') in their plans.

The only winning move is not to play. Do your own thing, but ferchrissakes don't start working for some family-moneyed fool because "appz R h0tt and we're all gonna get rich". If you're gonna take a risk, at least ensure that the risk beneficiary is you. The one major thing I've noticed in this little playground of ours is this: it's not that you are going to have trouble raising money - it's that you're going to have trouble raising money because you're going to get lost in the deafening noise of trustafarian morons with connections, and they're going to win that funding battle.

That is why we need to play out of revenues and/or do our thing on ramen money: it's because the other method is massively stacked against us, and massively stacked in favour of idiots.