Live data from Hacker News

A 16th-century engineer whose work almost defeated the Ottomans

arstechnica.com

11–20 of 51 posts

Re: A 16th-century engineer whose work almost defeated the Ottomans

#11

For people who love alternative history stories, the "Ring of Fire" series (starting with "1632", which you can get for free at http://www.baen.com/1632.html ) is highly recommended. The Suleyman portrait there (in http://ericflint.wikia.com/wiki/Ottoman_Empire ) is also rather astute.

Great series of books, I'll second this recommendation

Re: A 16th-century engineer whose work almost defeated the Ottomans

#13
A personal anecdote from a non-historian:

Some years back I took a holiday in Malta.

Taking the ferry to Valletta, climbing the ramp up from the dock, I was shocked to see the scale of the fortifications. I knew it was a strategically important place, but what surprised me was how obviously the entire walled peninsula of Valletta seemed to have been constructed first and foremost as a fortress. It's easy to forget the scale and scope of historical conflict and the effort that went into it, and this was a stark reminder.

The other thing that surprised me was that they had the old suits of armor of the commanders of the order, and I was surprised how big they were. I'm pretty tall (6"6) and was surprised to see the suits were close to my height. Presumably bigger than the men that wore them, but what occurred to me was "these are the guys who made it to the the top of their organization, the commanders, and they must have been very big for their time. This is probably an organization that values brute strength."

I don't know if that's a valid inference or not, but Malta definitely left the impression it was created by folk who mean business.

This linked article is really interesting context, makes me realize why Malta was built so well.

Re: A 16th-century engineer whose work almost defeated the Ottomans

#15
post #12

Oh, the last sentence reveals the purpose of the article" "See, kids, the reason mass surveillance ala Snowden has to exist is because the other side mines and we undermine, its always been like this."

I up voted this post because I think the greater conversation regarding astroturfing and media conditioning us to accept certain policies needs to be had, but I think you could have found a better way to say it.

Re: A 16th-century engineer whose work almost defeated the Ottomans

#16
post #13

A personal anecdote from a non-historian: Some years back I took a holiday in Malta. Taking the ferry to Valletta, climbing the ramp up from the dock, I was shocked to see the scale of the fortifications. I knew it was a strategically important place, but what surprised me was how obviously the entire walled peninsula of Valletta seemed to have been constructed first and foremost as a fortress. It's easy to forget th…

Isn't there still a correlation between status and size these days? Tall with good hair and you're already leadership material...

It's amazing how much of that story could have been written yesterday. Tunneling is still used in the middle-east as a war tactic. North Korea tunnels to South Korea. The value of engineering ;) Embargoes are essentially siege tactics.

Re: A 16th-century engineer whose work almost defeated the Ottomans

#17
post #13

A personal anecdote from a non-historian: Some years back I took a holiday in Malta. Taking the ferry to Valletta, climbing the ramp up from the dock, I was shocked to see the scale of the fortifications. I knew it was a strategically important place, but what surprised me was how obviously the entire walled peninsula of Valletta seemed to have been constructed first and foremost as a fortress. It's easy to forget th…

By pure happenstance, my wife and I took a tour of the Eastern Mediterranean and ended up in both Rhodes and then Malta where we learned about the Knights of St. John, the seiges by the Ottomans and the rest.

The fortress of Rhodes, now much restored by the fascist regimes of the early 20th century as a showpiece, is indomitable. The recorded histories say that Suleiman the Magnificent brought nearly a quarter million men to take the island. The defense was 700 knights, 500 archers and about 5,000 lower units.

After six months, as the story goes, the fortress was much battered, but still had not completely fallen. The Knights of St. John had lost the bulk of their men, but were still defending. Suleiman's forces on the other hand had suffered massive casualties -- depending on the source somewhere between 5,000 to several tens of thousands.

One of the local stories says that after the six months of siege, Suleiman communicated with the Knights something along the lines of "I am in awe of the defenders of this fortress. I have lost half my men, and you no doubt have lost half of yours. If you lay down your arms, you and any who wish to leave will be granted safe passage off of Rhodes."

Other histories I've looked into have different, but similar terms along those lines.

The Knights accepted and moved to Malta. The locals of Rhodes thus count the Fortress at Rhodes to have been surrendered but never to have fallen.

We toured that fortress and it's one of the most obviously formidable fortifications I've ever seen. Ever single square meter of it was designed to trap humans and place them into undefendable positions where they could be caught in an easy cross fire and slaughtered. It almost looks like something from science fiction in parts: layers of walls with straight line shots between them, approaches to gates with multiple overlapping fields of fire.

This approach in particular has really stuck with me - http://l450s.alamy.com/450s/cx91gf/knight-fortress-in-rhodes...

Nearly every hole you see there at ground level was designed for cannon with support fire from above by archers and other small arms. A person trying to breach this gate would be consumed by shots from nearly a dozen positions. The alternative approaches along the wall were all clear cut open spaces that could swallow thousands of men and set them up for easy pickings.

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/large/115461818.jpg

https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/x/greece-rhodes-july-fortress-...

Succeed in that, and you get another layer of walls with more places to get killed. And more and more and more. If you look down this corridor, you'll see some stone spheres. Those I was told were representations, and perhaps even some original, canon balls. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/ba/Rhodes_o...

Imagine scaling the wall to the right in the picture, making it across that open shooting range, then setting up ladders or something to scale the wall on the left.

Re: A 16th-century engineer whose work almost defeated the Ottomans

#19
But I'm sure, by the scale of successful conquests on the ottoman side; there are several successful engineering innovations at their end as well. What makes Tadini's work note-worthy is the usual 'David vs Goliath' emphasis and also Ottoman Empire did not survive; history is written (mostly re-written) by the victors !

Re: A 16th-century engineer whose work almost defeated the Ottomans

#20
post #16
post #13

A personal anecdote from a non-historian: Some years back I took a holiday in Malta. Taking the ferry to Valletta, climbing the ramp up from the dock, I was shocked to see the scale of the fortifications. I knew it was a strategically important place, but what surprised me was how obviously the entire walled peninsula of Valletta seemed to have been constructed first and foremost as a fortress. It's easy to forget th…

Isn't there still a correlation between status and size these days? Tall with good hair and you're already leadership material... It's amazing how much of that story could have been written yesterday. Tunneling is still used in the middle-east as a war tactic. North Korea tunnels to South Korea. The value of engineering ;) Embargoes are essentially siege tactics.

There's even a correlation between height and intelligence (presumably due to nutrition).
Post reply on HN