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It's Never Too Early to Fire

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Re: It's Never Too Early to Fire

#171

Post by timwaagh »

erikpukinskis wrote: post #2

Weirdly, I think we would all benefit quite a lot from a normalization of fast firing. Part of the reason it's hard to get a job is that companies are afraid to fire you, so they jump through all kinds of strange hoops to try to predict how good an employee you'll be based on, really, no information. This also forces companies to filter out "possibly good" candidates and only hire "probably good" candidates. If it we…

i am sure you have the right intentions but programmers tend to need some time to get up to speed. besides, nobody really wants to work at a shop like that. every employee will think you don't care. meaning you will have to deal with people leaving you for a more dependable company. recruiters won't like you as they are unlikely to get their money and need to find new people all the time.

it is possible if you offer employees a lot of money. some financial companies do things like this (fire 5% every year) and manage quite well but i doubt it works in sectors where personnel costs are significant.

If you have been fired in a week or so then you know the psychological impact of these practices.

Re: It's Never Too Early to Fire

#172

Post by vonnik »

The way the job market works is the larger problem. It usually forces both employers and employees to make a big commitment based on deeply imperfect information. It's like asking someone to marry after the second date, usually when they're already married and can't survive long without being married.

Re: It's Never Too Early to Fire

#173

Post by pmarreck »

pillowkusis wrote: post #142
pmarreck wrote: post #139

Is intuition infallible? I want to hear stories about people who followed their intuition on staying or going (or keeping or firing) and it ended up being the wrong decision long-term. Falsifiability is IMHO an important element of arguing for "intuition" And yet, I look back and I can't think of a single example in my own life where "listening to my gut" seemed to lead me astray. But I also don't trust my own brain…

if you fired someone too early, how would you ever know? They're at a different company. You'd have to somehow hear from a separate, trusted source that they were actually doing way better. Incredibly rare. the whole thesis of this article ("you can never fire someone too soon") reeks of selection bias

Exactly!

Re: It's Never Too Early to Fire

#174

Post by cr0sh »

caseysoftware wrote: post #135
jcadam wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was hired into my current position (as a contractor at a government facility) to be a 'software architect and software engineering subject matter expert.' The way the position was sold to me, it sounded like a good step-up in responsibility and an opportunity to grow. What I'm actually doing could be considered a cross between 'IT guy' and 'generic office staff' (I go to tons of meetings, write lots of system-engin…

Then take advantage of it! Pay off as many debts as you can and bank the rest. A few years ago, the single most powerful thing I did was knock out all our non-mortgage debt. It's freeing to know that if something happened, I could take a pay hit of $Xk/month and still have the same lifestyle. Being unemployed for several months is way less scary if your monthly expenses are lower and you have cash in the bank.

> Being unemployed for several months is way less scary if your monthly expenses are lower and you have cash in the bank.

I call this being "Dave Ramsey Debt-Free" - and everything you say is true. There's a lot more to it than that (how to properly pay down debt, how to properly use credit cards, buying vs leasing automobiles, plus buy used only, etc) - but the "debt free" part of it is spot on.

The money in the bank? That's f-u money, meaning you get tired of things, tell yer boss to take the job and shove and walk out the door. I've done this a couple of times, and both times it was ultimately worth it, and wasn't scary because I knew I had enough saved that I could keep going at my expenses level for a couple years or more if I had to.

It's a very freeing position to be in.

Re: It's Never Too Early to Fire

#175

Post by BeetleB »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #170
BeetleB wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>However, junior people really shouldn't have any problem with motivation and drive How are you going to determine if that really was the problem? Every time I've heard a colleague say something like this, (s)he is just utilizing a model in his/her mind to explain the behavior, and pretty much never attempts to validate/falsify. Pretty much always post hoc justifications.

It's really not that hard. When I have multiple peers of the person coming to me saying that someone is not putting in effort, and they aren't dependable, and they don't follow through, that's a pretty clear signal.

>they aren't dependable, and they don't follow through

These are all fine and measurable. Jumping from those to "lack of motivation and drive" is a leap.

Re: It's Never Too Early to Fire

#176

Post by tkyjonathan »

gm-conspiracy wrote: post #77
tkyjonathan wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Contractors are especially needed in unionized permanent companies - where contractors/3rd party companies are needed just to get things moving in the direction management wants.

Scabs? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strikebreaker

Not in a strike scenario. Its just that I've been in a unionized environment and while it has many benefits, if the employee doesnt feel like doing something management wants - they simply wont do it.

Dont agree with the direction, not something they are familiar with.... they like things just the way they have been used to these last few decades.

Re: It's Never Too Early to Fire

#177

Post by dwaltrip »

noxToken wrote: post #102
tajen wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just want you to know that I'm a beginner in management (having hired two juniors for my startup), and I'll use this advice (The junior is not productive, but him being reasonably motivated is the reason why I'll keep him).

Conversely, ramp-up time should not be infinite. A junior employee should not be limping along after a year at the company. Either that person just isn't a fit, or there is something terribly wrong at your company.

As always, balance is key.

Heuristics and rules of thumb are incomplete by definition, and a deep understanding of these dynamics is incredibly difficult to acquire :)

Re: It's Never Too Early to Fire

#178

Post by rhapsodic »

coldtea wrote: post #42
erikpukinskis wrote: post #2

Weirdly, I think we would all benefit quite a lot from a normalization of fast firing. Part of the reason it's hard to get a job is that companies are afraid to fire you, so they jump through all kinds of strange hoops to try to predict how good an employee you'll be based on, really, no information. This also forces companies to filter out "possibly good" candidates and only hire "probably good" candidates. If it we…

> My next company will have explicit rubrics for what it takes to get fired, and your status will be tracked daily. You'll know at all times exactly how close you are to getting fired with how much severance. Is this something out of Dilbert? Sounds like a quantification-obsessed culture -- the very opposite of ensuring qualitative assessment. Will probably just run to the ground as people flee the hell-hole as soon…

> Is this something out of Dilbert?

Yep, it was a line spoken by Dogbert. /s

Re: It's Never Too Early to Fire

#179

Post by rhapsodic »

erikpukinskis wrote: post #2

Weirdly, I think we would all benefit quite a lot from a normalization of fast firing. Part of the reason it's hard to get a job is that companies are afraid to fire you, so they jump through all kinds of strange hoops to try to predict how good an employee you'll be based on, really, no information. This also forces companies to filter out "possibly good" candidates and only hire "probably good" candidates. If it we…

>We'll also try to spin off a separate business with the fired person at the head, instead of just firing, whenever possible.

That is priceless. A true gem.

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