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Chrome Won

andreasgal.com

441–450 of 583 posts

Re: Chrome Won

#441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The problem is we're moving extremely fast to a chrome only world. If it wasn't for corporate sites and the success of the iPhone chrome would probably be dominating the way IE used to." "Always after a defeat and a respite, the Shadow takes another shape and grows again." -- Gandalf

Great Tolkien quote.

Well its not the same boss again. Sure Chrome has a massive market share. But even Today's MS Edge is not open. I used to work for the Edge team and the directors never really gave Open Source a serious thought. It was too tied to windows. I am glad Edge doesn't have the market share that Chrome has.

Chrome works on every platform. It hogs memory but its fast. Chromium & v8 are open. This is the kind of things that gave us Electron, nodejs and everything that is built on top of it. I appreciate Google for working on it.

Regarding privacy, I totally agree. Would be nice if the most popular web browser wasn't developed by the world's biggest ad company. I still think they do a descent job of isolating the two orgs. I can technically install extensions that stop much of the ad invasions.

Re: Chrome Won

#442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Servo and Webrender[0] will completely shake up the browser landscape, and will allow web apps to match (maybe even surpass?) native mobile apps in terms of rendering performance. Unless Firefox (and Servo) gets it GUI to not feel alien and clunky, it wont matter if it has a faster rendering engine. Rendering engines are plenty fast as it is anyway, it's CPU use and battery impact that matters to users. And when pe…

> Rendering engines are plenty fast as it is anyway, it's CPU use and battery impact that matters to users. That's at odds with almost every single sentiment I've seen regarding native vs. Web apps. Take one look at any HN thread about the two. > And when performance does matter, it's mostly Javascript performance, which Servo doesn't address. If that were true, then there wouldn't be a performance differential betwe…

Modern JS is pretty fast yeah, but I still don't think it rivals Objective-C does it? If we stipulate it's 1/2 as fast as Swift, it's still much faster than v8 on the benchmarks game [1]. Can you be trickier with JS code than those toy programs are?

[1] http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64q/compare.php?lan...

Re: Chrome Won

#443

Mozilla lost its way the day Firefox started chasing Chrome on look and feel rather than sticking to its guns and making the most standard compliant technical browser there is.

That doesn't make sense, both Firefox and Chrome are working on being "the most standard compliant technical browser there is". Check browser scores on https://caniuse.com — Firefox and Chrome are very close, Safari is behind, Edge is way behind.

Thing is that Chrome has a history of exposing all manner of "experimental" stuff to the world, leading to situations where Firefox either have to be seen as a laggard or implement things that have yet to be formally defined. This then allows Chrome to de-facto define the standard.

Re: Chrome Won

#444

I will not leave Firefox as long as I can keep working with it. I don't find any substantial difference when I compare it with Chrome, so for me is just a choice based on the Company behinds the product. Mozilla values and mine are aligned and I would like people to think more about the companies and less about the product. At the end that's what matter. What kind of Internet are you willing to see in 10 years? It ca…

well said, unfortunately majority of the userbase just don't care about this enough to vote with their choice.

Re: Chrome Won

#445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Rendering engines are plenty fast as it is anyway, it's CPU use and battery impact that matters to users. That's at odds with almost every single sentiment I've seen regarding native vs. Web apps. Take one look at any HN thread about the two. > And when performance does matter, it's mostly Javascript performance, which Servo doesn't address. If that were true, then there wouldn't be a performance differential betwe…

> That's at odds with almost every single sentiment I've seen regarding native vs. Web apps. Take one look at any HN thread about the two. If we're talking about e.g. Electron apps, the problem I see mentioned (and felt myself) is almost always the memory hogging, the GC-pauses, the battery impact and such -- not the rendering speed. Although, there is talk of getting to 60fps web apps etc. For something like Atom, i…

> If we're talking about e.g. Electron apps, the problem I see mentioned (and felt myself) is almost always the memory hogging, the GC-pauses, the battery impact and such -- not the rendering speed.

I see the opposite. VS Code feels somewhat slow, mostly because of rendering—it doesn't hit 60 FPS.

You cite GC pauses. One of the best ways to mitigate GC pauses is to move the noticeable rendering logic off the main thread so that your app doesn't freeze during GCs, which is precisely what Servo is designed to do.

> For something like Atom, is the slow redrawing because "DOM is slow" or because "doing the calculations needed for a sizable file, with syntax highlighting regexes, compiler checks, freeing memory, etc takes lots of processing time"?

The performance differential is because of many things, but regex performance and freeing memory relative to native aren't among them. JS engines' regex engines are best in class and easily exceed the performance of popular C regex libraries; this is a side effect of SunSpider and V8 including regex benchmarks. Memory deallocation in popular JS engines is faster than in native, because sweeping takes place all at once and generational GC nursery evacuation is very fast.

> That's not entirely true, as Objective-C dispatch was thoroughly optimized [1].

Those numbers are precisely what I'm referring to. In most cases, JS method dispatch is more like a C++ method call or an IMP-cached message send than a slow hash table lookup. Often it's even better, because the inliner kicks in, while inlining is very difficult in Objective-C. Objective-C's "fast path" is the slowest path in JavaScript, one that's only hit for megamorphic call sites.

> Besides, the performance differential is also in the time to process logic (and the network latency) which you don't address.

Pure computation in most apps is not appreciably slower for the end user in JS than it is in Android or iOS. And if it is, there's always Web Assembly! We're doing lots of work to improve JS performance; it's just not all under the Servo umbrella.

> And of course, aside from rendering (which often is just "show a few forms, buttons and lists" for most apps) a part of the heavy logic in Objective-C for lots of tasks is done in C or C++ frameworks at much faster speeds than modern JS engines.

That same "heavy logic"—by which I assume you mean audio/image/video decoding, JSON/XML parsing, image filters, vector graphics work—is also done in native code in browsers. And it's those very same tasks that we're optimizing in Servo.

Re: Chrome Won

#446
post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is chrome is an open source browser with a lot of really smart people working to make it better everyday . IE, was none of theses things when Firefox came into the market. You also have to remember many of the core developers who built Firefox went on to build Chrome. And then even many of developers that built IE went on to work on chrome. In 2007, they had pulled together an amazing team to kick off the b…

I don't think that monocultures are wise.

Rust has a monoculture. So firefox does/will have one

Re: Chrome Won

#447
post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do wonder how much of that is the browser's fault, and how much is because of website developers not understanding that we have a website obesity problem[0], nor the concept of "optimizing for fan noise"[1]. I'm fairly conscientious about this myself since I'm working on plotting data, and the dumb client-side number crunching involved is actually pretty good at eating CPU cycles. Most plotting libraries want to sh…

I wouldn't put this on the developer's shoulders always. I work for a major online retailer in my country and I'm always surprised of the amount of crap the people from business add to our site. All kind of tracking tools, surveys, push notifications, etc.

True, I should have generalised it as "people who put content on the web", which isn't limited to developers at all.

Re: Chrome Won

#448

I agree with this blog post. But I don't think Mozilla lost. I worked for Mozilla for a few years, after seeing John Lily (CEO at the time) speak. It was right after Chrome started getting popular, and a smug person in the crowd asked him about how he felt about Chrome. John's response was awesome. "This is the web that we wanted. We exist not because we want everyone to use Firefox, but because we wanted people to h…

"best viewed with IE" got updated to "best viewed in Chrome"

Yes, except that "best viewed with IE" was there (at least initially) as part of a campaign where Microsoft was paying web sites to put in stuff that was incompatible with Netscape/Mozilla, and "best viewed in Chrome" is there because web developers are lazy.

Re: Chrome Won

#449

When you get a new long distance plan, do you worry if the plan you picked isn't the most popular plan? Do you decide it means you got a 'loser plan'? Me neither. To me, this article was written from the perspective of a zero sum game mentality. The author clearly wanted to be #1. Does this mean Firefox is failing? I think the evidence is lacking there. And all the guy really offers as evidence is, "From these graphs…

One issue is that building a browser take engineers, and that takes a lot of money. Mozilla makes its money from search partnerships; they make money every time someone uses default search. If less people are using Firefox, less people are using default search, which in turn means less revenue. This means fewer engineers. If they don't have enough engineers to maintain Firefox, the browser falls apart. I am skeptical that Firefox could be maintained by donations or volunteers when its competitors are backed by large companies.

A response is that even if Firefox's share falls, that the absolute number of Firefox users continues to rise. ie that the total market is growing. In this case Mozilla would still be generating the revenue it needs to keep going. The author brushes this possibility off in the beginning of the article, saying that browsers are a thing of the past.

Re: Chrome Won

#450
post #274
post #63

So Mozilla lost Firefox OS. And their browser share is smaller then Chrome, and then it was, but still top tier and winning from M$. I'm much less pessimistic. Besides a cross platform and extensible browser we see also the following coming out of Mozilla: * Rust, a modern low-level programming language with cutting edge "safety" build in at zero runt time cost, luring many system programmers. * Servo, tomorrow brows…

Let's not forget that Firefox also has Tree Style Tabs, which for power users is the good reason not to use Chrome and use Firefox instead.

As is Vimperator.
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