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Chrome Won

andreasgal.com

411–420 of 583 posts

Re: Chrome Won

#411
I use Chrome begrudgingly at times because I value its security record. The fact that in 2017 you still can't do tabs in a vertical row down the side, or the fact that when too many tabs are open (you know, like...always), you can't tell what is actually open in that tab...these are the reasons I'll never feel great about a full switch. Firefox makes similar things easy.

Oh, and I don't like that Google tracks everything I do while using it...

If you're looking for a Chrome experience without the privacy concerns, take a look at http://iridiumbrowser.de. It's Chrome will (supposedly, I've not personally verified) all the Google tracking stripped out to the extent possible.

Re: Chrome Won

#412
post #61

I agree with this blog post. But I don't think Mozilla lost. I worked for Mozilla for a few years, after seeing John Lily (CEO at the time) speak. It was right after Chrome started getting popular, and a smug person in the crowd asked him about how he felt about Chrome. John's response was awesome. "This is the web that we wanted. We exist not because we want everyone to use Firefox, but because we wanted people to h…

The problem is we're moving extremely fast to a chrome only world. If it wasn't for corporate sites and the success of the iPhone chrome would probably be dominating the way IE used to. I definitely run into sites that only work on chrome and not in any other browser. In my opinion chrome isn't doing a good job either. It's a massive energy hog and waste more CPU than it needs to. Unlike IE and FireFox and Safari it…

"I definitely run into sites that only work on chrome and not in any other browser."

You spend too much time working lurking around HN sites and young web developers.

Re: Chrome Won

#413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Closed source is a boolean. Chrome is distributed only as a binary. I.e. it is totally closed source. It currently has a very large relation to the open source Chromium project. But Google could change that tomorrow if they wanted to - they could also gradually move more and more to their closed source Chrome builds (as they have done with Android).

Are there any viable chromium based open source browsers out there that have consistent updates?

Yes, Brave [0] and Irdium [1].

[0] https://www.brave.com/ [1] https://iridiumbrowser.de/

Re: Chrome Won

#414
post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's not forget that Firefox also has Tree Style Tabs, which for power users is the good reason not to use Chrome and use Firefox instead.

Better say "had". They'll disappear in some months, unless you stick with ESR (which has expiry date, AFAIK in 2018Q2)

Extensions for tree style and vertical tabs:

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/tree-style-ta...

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/vertical-tabs...

Re: Chrome Won

#415
post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be honest, all browsers currently on market are energy hogs and use massive amount of memory. God I miss the old Opera....

I do wonder how much of that is the browser's fault, and how much is because of website developers not understanding that we have a website obesity problem[0], nor the concept of "optimizing for fan noise"[1]. I'm fairly conscientious about this myself since I'm working on plotting data, and the dumb client-side number crunching involved is actually pretty good at eating CPU cycles. Most plotting libraries want to sh…

Both, since browser these days don't even show the number of connections and download speed for a loading page, much less an indicator for high CPU usage. I'm not saying displaying this stuff would be enough by itself, but hiding what is going on just so we can have a slightly bigger viewport into unicolor surfaces with huge padding and line spacing certainly doesn't help.

I know there are all sorts of flags etc, but consider old Opera, where switching the status bar between none, simple and advanced was right there in one of the main menus. That was a good start, that stuff would be compact and super useful by now if we'd just keep going.

Re: Chrome Won

#416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed that Mozilla's original mission has been accomplished in spades, but I wouldn't count Mozilla out of the browser race just yet. Servo and Webrender[0] will completely shake up the browser landscape, and will allow web apps to match (maybe even surpass?) native mobile apps in terms of rendering performance. Unless Chrome, IE, and Safari can develop an answer to Servo and Webrender by the time those technologies…

> Servo and Webrender[0] will completely shake up the browser landscape, and will allow web apps to match (maybe even surpass?) native mobile apps in terms of rendering performance. Unless Firefox (and Servo) gets it GUI to not feel alien and clunky, it wont matter if it has a faster rendering engine. Rendering engines are plenty fast as it is anyway, it's CPU use and battery impact that matters to users. And when pe…

> Rendering engines are plenty fast as it is anyway, it's CPU use and battery impact that matters to users.

That's at odds with almost every single sentiment I've seen regarding native vs. Web apps. Take one look at any HN thread about the two.

> And when performance does matter, it's mostly Javascript performance, which Servo doesn't address.

If that were true, then there wouldn't be a performance differential between native and Web, since Objective-C and Dalvik are slower than modern JS engines. (Look at how method call dispatch works in Objective-C!)

Besides, a lot of what shows up as "JS performance" in a profiler is actually blocking on DOM operations. With off-main-thread layout, these operations can be done in the background, resulting in improved DOM performance.

Re: Chrome Won

#417
Whatever war Mozilla dives into next, I really hope it's a winnable one, because free software can't afford to have execs who keep on making dumb mistakes. I was telling anyone who would listen from day one that both Firefox OS and Ubuntu Phone were doomed to failure.

All it took to make that prediction was a basic understanding of network effects and the history of client platform businesses.

Jumping into the mobile market after Google and Apple had carved it up was insanity. As a consumer, changing the platform you use to access your apps and services carries a high switching cost--most likely you'll lose some of those apps and services and be forced to find replacements.

Customers don't like to make that switch because it's hard, and it's exceedingly hard to think of cases where it's happened. Microsoft established its dominance over the APIs for building IBM PC software in the 1980s and is still the only game in town. It established its dominance over the formats for business documents in the 1990s and is still the only game in town (nearly - Google Docs is at around 20%). Facebook established its dominance over the social graph by the end of the aughts and, you guessed it, is still the only game in town.

Now the web platform is an interesting case because Mozilla and Google really did succeed in wresting that away from Microsoft, but this situation was special for two reasons: one, because Microsoft stopped investing in its browser for more than half a decade (discouraged in part by government action), and two, because the web platform was largely standardized so most sites that worked with IE worked with other browsers. But it was still a tough fight.

Perhaps winning that battle made Mozilla overconfident and contributed to their belief that they could lay a claim to the mobile platform as well. But it was almost impossible from the beginning because there were no users left to win. Once people have settled on a platform they just don't want to leave it. Mozilla did identify the necessary strategy: you have to go after people who aren't yet locked in, and it was their intent to do that in emerging markets. But there really weren't that many people left who were ready to own phones yet didn't, and this time they were facing incumbents who weren't asleep at the wheel.

So, they lost, and underinvested in the desktop browser market in the process, and lost market share there too.

When your management team makes bets it can't win and loses its core market in the process, it's just called bad management. Anyone who was involved in these decisions and is still at Mozilla should be sacked. I think Andreas is wrong about the desktop browser market being lost because in 2017 a website will still render just as well in Firefox as it does in Chrome. In 2022 that might not be the case.

As an aside, with a $400M annual budget and a big win against Microsoft back in the day under their belt, I can see how hubris could have gotten the better of Mozilla. But what I cannot see is how Mark Shuttleworth went and did the same thing: fighting an unwinnable platform war against Apple and Google. He is a smart guy. The decision to do Ubuntu Phone boggled my mind from day one.

If I were at Mozilla I would focus on the desktop browser and I would aim to win there. It's where they have the best shot. If they lose and Google comes to truly dominate the market then Google will use every dirty trick they can to lock it down, control it, and turn it into profits, they are a corporation. If they're going to try to fight some other battle, it should be for a blue ocean, preferably one they can leverage their existing position into.

Re: Chrome Won

#418
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is we're moving extremely fast to a chrome only world. If it wasn't for corporate sites and the success of the iPhone chrome would probably be dominating the way IE used to. I definitely run into sites that only work on chrome and not in any other browser. In my opinion chrome isn't doing a good job either. It's a massive energy hog and waste more CPU than it needs to. Unlike IE and FireFox and Safari it…

"I definitely run into sites that only work on chrome and not in any other browser." You spend too much time working lurking around HN sites and young web developers.

I run into it occasionally, but it is usually caused by plugins. If I just cannot be bothered to try to figure out which of the 100+ JS files needs to be allowed or what ublock green / red / + / - bit I have to click (I admit I have no idea what they refer to) sometimes I just quickly open the page in chrome.

Re: Chrome Won

#419
post #363
post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Apple lost it by getting boxed into a market share corner You mean the corner where they are the premium smartphone vendor, taking 90% share of global profits? That's a great corner to be boxed into :)

Profits and usage are different categories. Apple might be taking more money home, but that's not what is being discussed. The points being made were about having control and influence over the ecosystem.

Do web developers feel like their applications must support iOS? Why?

Because iOS users are a significant source of potential profit.

Apple doesn't need to maximize usage in order to control the ecosystem - they just need to maximize profit potential.

Re: Chrome Won

#420
post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chrome handles few tabs better, Firefox handles hundreds of tabs better.

This ultimately was what made me switch back to Firefox after I had used Chrome for a couple of years. I regularly have several hundred tabs opened in my browser, and Chrome was completely unusable in that situation, at least back then.

Use The Great Suspender for Chrome. Still not as good as a native solution like Firefox built in, but it works wonders.
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